And I can dress like a Dark Sith Lord and demand that you address me as "My master". What is so special about sex/gender that people can identify as a sex they are not, but identifying as something else you are not, well that's just crazy?
— Harry Hindu

Ask yourself: why is the above laughable rationalization more important to me than being friendly and somewhat accomodating to transsexuals? Why don't I want to be friendly and somewhat accomodating to transsexuals? — ZzzoneiroCosm

Transsexuals and some other groups are demanding uneven, non-reciprocal relationships with people who are not part of their category.

I'm supposed to be accomodating and friendly toward a trans, but the trans doesn't have to be accomodating and friendly toward me. No shit.

You act like deciphering intent and motive is all that difficult. — Hanover

No, aggressively projecting onto others is easy.
Your favorite is to presume ill will by default and to act in bad faith. So you "are" always certain about what the other person is thinking, eh.
You don't talk, you don't listen, you impose. You hit first, and if the other person doesn't fend off your attack to your satisfaction, you consider yourself to be right and to know the truth about the other person. Facts be damned.

Rather typical for a lawyer, but not conducive to open and meaningful communication.

What determines someone to be a man or a woman? Genotype? Phenotype? Psychology? Social role? Naming? — Michael

No, the question is what determines the importance of whether one is a man or a woman, or something other.

Personally, I think gender/sexual distinctions are important for organizing social and economical life, primarily for practical reasons. So that people know which public toilet to go to, or which part of a clothing store to go to, and such.

Beyond that, I think issues of gender/sexual identity are trivial, superficial, transitory, and a waste to invest into. Regardless if it is a heterosexual woman investing into making herself look particularly female, or a heterosexual male investing into making himself look particularly male, or someone undergoing a sex change operation. Things like that are a waste of money.

The larger issue concerns what it is we are born with when our parents fist. — Joshs

This is just the starting point, the initial "cards one has been dealt". After that, development can proceed in many ways.

how our personalities differ from each other, how one has a temper and the other is shy.

Having a temper or being shy used to be considered marks of bad character back in the day, and a person was expected to eliminate those marks. Nowadays, the terminology has changed ("having a temper" falls under "emotional dysregulation" and "being shy" falls under "social anxiety" or "risk aversion") but those are again and still, considered undesirable traits.

If you were to simply deny gender-related claims but support the idea that personality traits give us global styles of perception that are robust, then I would say your thinking and mine weren’t far apart.But my guess is you want to deny any connection between personality and cognitive style, because when it comes down to it, gender is a personality style.

I see no reason to think that either personality or cognitive style are permanent or pervasive.
It's sometimes convenient to think they are. And many people tend to persist in theirs, so this makes for the impression that they are permanent and pervasive.
But on the other hand, people who want to improve thier life are told to "change their mindset", "overcome limiting beliefs" and such, which goes to show that neither personality nor cognitive style are necessarily (deemed) permanent and pervasive.

Beyond that, I think issues of gender/sexual identity are trivial, superficial, transitory, and a waste to invest into. — baker

You re lucky you have the luxury of not having had to grow up a feminine acting gay male who was endlessly reminded by his male and female peers of how non-trival, non-superficial and non time-wasting gender behavior was to them. And it was precisely because they assumed my behavior was merely an arbitrary and silly choice, a learned phenomenon, that they were able to justify their ridicule and bullying to themselves.

We are born with many personality traits that are robust and stable. to recognize them in others is to see their style, the art of their being with you. Recognizing the art of their personality style allows you a greater intimacy with them. Gender behavior is an art of being, and not seeing it deprives both you and others of this intimacy of relation.

There are few things less noble than resenting or undermining people for who they are. — Tom Storm

... people for who they are?

The way the term "identity" is used in discussions of people's identity, is a misuse, compared to what the term means in logic. At best, it's a misleading use.

"Identity" implies permanence, context-independence. A square is a square, even if it s among a thousand circles, and a circle is a circle, even if it is among a thousand suqares, or looked at under UV light, or whatever. Human "identity" is not like that, because human "identity" is subject to change, subject to arising and cessation, and it's context-dependent. The same person is sometimes a teacher, a patient, a customer, a husband, but not all at the same time in the same place; sometimes, their skin color is relevant, other times, it isn't. And so on.

Things that are subject to change are not fit to be regarded as self.

Good for you. I've made my point.

Good for you. I've made my point. — Tom Storm

This still doesn't mean that those who question the nature of human identity are "resenting or undermining people for who they are".
Do you understand that?

Maybe you could drop the patronizing expressions like "Do you understand that?"

You re lucky you have the luxury of not having had to grow up a feminine acting gay male who was endlessly reminded by his male and female peers of how non-trival, non-superficial and non time-wasting gender behavior was to them. And it was precisely because they assumed my behavior was merely an arbitrary and silly choice, a learned phenomenon, that they were able to justify their ridicule and bullying to themselves. — Joshs

What do you know of my growing up, or of my present?!

We are born with many personality traits that are robust and stable. to recognize them in others is to see their style, the art of their being with you. Recognizing the art of their personality style allows you a greater intimacy with them. Gender behavior is an art of being, and not seeing it deprives both you and others of this intimacy of relation.

For one, I'm fairly certain that you don't want to be intimate with the majority of people on this planet. I'm fairly certain that you don't want to be intimate with me, heh.

For two, the topic of this thread seems to be particularly close to your heart,and associated with trauma, which might still be too fresh to discuss this topic at a forum like this.

, people who want to improve thier life are told to "change their mindset", "overcome limiting beliefs" and such, which goes to show that neither personality nor cognitive style are necessarily (deemed) permanent and pervasive. — baker

Personality style has nothing to do with cognitive beliefs, knowledge, rationality, experience. Style is not a content of thought. Can you overcome shyness? Yes, but the underlying disposition is still there. One simply learned to channel it. People on the autism spectrum don’t line to be considered pathological. They prefer to be considered as having a cognitive style. One can say the same of those with Wilson’s syndrome and many other inborn dispositions that give distinct personality profiles. Is autism a belief that one could or should outgrow?

https://youtu.be/JnylM1hI2jc

Will you drop yours?

More importantly, mine is a genuine question. I'm actually not sure whether you understand what I'm talking about. There have been discussions about identity at the forum, but I don't recall correctly whether you participated and to what extent.

Can you overcome shyness? Yes, but the underlying disposition is still there. One simply learned to channel it. — Joshs

Thinking of such traits as permanent might actually be a coping mechanism.

I think people are more flexible and more malleable than the official discourse acknowledges them to be.

People on the autism spectrum don’t line to be considered pathological. They prefer to be considered as having a cognitive style. One can say the same of those with Wilson’s syndrome and many other inborn dispositions that give distinct personality profiles. Is autism a belief that one could or should outgrow?

Life is hard enough. Thinking that one should be accepted and respected "for who one is" is for the most part a dangerous idealism.

As I said I have made my comment. Take it however you want.

No. At a philosophy forum, you should do better than that.

:rofl:

They make themselves look like a woman in order to get the social and economical benefits that women have.

Some examples:

In poor Asian countries, many young men transition into women because this way, they can more easily find work as female(-looking) singers, dancers, and prostitutes.

A petite, balding man is generally not considered attractive as a man; but if he transitions into a woman, he makes for an average or even above average good-looking woman with the psychological, social, and economical perks that come with that.

If a woman is stuck in a lowly job or doesn't climb up in her career, nobody bats an eyelid; but expectations are higher for men. So some men, afraid of career failure, transition into a woman where career failure is not so heavily stigmatized.

Male-to-female athletes: those men couldn't cut in the men's league, but they can outperform women. (How about female-to-male athletes??) — baker

Other than in the harsh reality of living in abject poverty in a third world country where men find their only option for survival is to physically alter their gender in order to enter the sex industry so they can offer themselves up to Westerners, your other examples are pretty much nonsense.

Setting that aside, determining one's motives for gender reassignment surgery doesn't require armchair psychoanalysis and speculation into their mental states, but it only requires that you ask them. Unless you're committed to there being universal conspiratorial fraud among the sisterhood of transsexuals where they all provide false reasons for their desires for transition, I think we have to take their word for why they wish to transition. The surveys don't indicate they're doing it because they're old and bald and don't get the winks and stares they once did, so they now want to install some pretty breasts on themselves to get attention.

I can say that this thread has shaken out some pretty crazy and entertaining posts, and I do thank you for your contribution in that regard.

By consenting to such a procedure, they express their disdain for social norms, and they want their disdain to be respected by those who hold to the social norms. — baker

I think the social norm they disdain is that normally they are disdained and they ask not be disdained. They want not be considered abnormal, which sounds normal enough to me, but it's also contrary to what you argued above, which is when you said that they relish being different and enjoy the freak show they throw in your face. That is, they alter their sexual organs just to make your head spin, which they wouldn't do if there weren't people like you. It's all about you I guess.

Let me switch gears just a bit so that I can tease out more of your opinions. Is what you say of transsexuals applicable to gay people? That is, do men have sex with men and act effeminately in order to gain attention and do they then try to normalize their behavior by creating laws allowing them to marry and not be discriminated upon based upon their sexual preference?

Gay men perhaps display a less guarded posture with perhaps more relaxed musculature; they seem a bit more carefully groomed; slightly better put together clothing -- regardless of what they are wearing; a more open sort of verbal expression. Perhaps one is more likely to find gay men at an art gallery than a used car auction, but I know people who contradict that. Gay men do seem to regard (see, evaluate) other men more carefully than straight men. — Bitter Crank

A homosexual man told me that most homosexual men are macho types like heterosexual men.

In my experience, the quickest way for a woman to find a good friend is among homosexual men. But I don't think this has to do with the man being homosexual per se, but rather that he, as a person, had to work through some quite difficult things (due to "not being ordinary"), and if successful, emerged as a decent, sensible person.

The most sensible persons I have known have all been homosexual men.

I think people are more flexible and more malleable than the official discourse acknowledges them to be — baker

Flexibility and malleability without a self-consistent thread of intelligibility is nothing but chaos and confusion. You seem to believe that things like dispositions and styles are nothing but prisons that hold us back. I admire your desire for personal growth and transformation. We all desire that, but sheer novelty is meaninglessness. Meaningful change can only take place through pre-existing channels of thought that make such change relevant and coherent to us. A life is an evolving theme or style, not a random lurching from one meaning to the next. We are never the same person from one moment to the next, but we continue he to be the same differently.

The people who know you will be able to say that you’ve changed a lot in your life, but they will also be able to say you’re the same person you’ve always been.
That’s your evolving style, gendered and otherwise.
You seem to miss the essential role that style plays in allowing us to venture forward in life.

But, gay signals and gaydar work well enough most of the time. — Bitter Crank

I alluded to this in a different context in this thread, but I do think humans have very strong innate social skills that allow us to navigate our complicated social world, not the least of which is the ability to locate potential sexual partners. All those unidentifiable clues come together easily for some and are impossible for others. I've heard women complain about what else they have to do for the guy to notice them, and I've seen guys asking me whether they think a girl likes them after the girl has practically thrown themselves at the guy.

I was just in a restaurant with my wife the other day and we saw our waiter stroking the hair of an attractive waitress as they talked by the cash register. My wife and I both quickly exchanged glances, and I said, "must be his bestie," which she agreed. We had both registered previously he was gay and we were figuring out why he'd be getting so cozy with the attractive waitress.

This is also why it's so difficult to alter our gender identification. The slightest clue will let us know that man in the dress is not a woman. We're just way too good at noticing little clues.

The most sensible persons I have known have all been homosexual men. — baker

Yes, absolutely, Homosexual men are definitely the most sensible of men.

A homosexual man told me that most homosexual men are macho types like heterosexual men. — baker

Some gay men are even more macho than straight men, but maximum-machismo is sometimes more 'art' than 'nature'. That is, some gay men cultivate machismo (and so do some straight men). Lots of men and women find machismo attractive, though maybe not as a steady diet.

the quickest way for a woman to find a good friend is among homosexual men. — baker

Yes. Gay men can be close friends with women because they are not sexually interested in the women. They are 'safe'. Conversely, a woman may make a very good friend for a gay male because there is no sexual attraction. Gay men can, of course, be very close friends with each other, but there is often a sexual tension between gay men that also exists between straight women and straight men.

Insightful observations about extraordinarily complex behaviors and mental processes.

Good observational skills can be developed, but they also require that one be open to the flow of cues, signs, subtle behaviors, and so on. Sometimes I have 'closed the door' to the clues others are broadcasting for a sort of self-protection from too much information.

I can say that this thread has shaken out some pretty crazy and entertaining posts, and I do thank you for your contribution in that regard. — Hanover

I do hope that your bad faith will somehow come back to haunt you.
But if it doesn't, then that's just proof that might indeed makes right, and you actually have nothing to complain about.

A life is an evolving theme or style, not a random lurching from one meaning to the next.

You seem to miss the essential role that style plays in allowing us to venture forward in life. — Joshs

I think you underestimate the daily struggle for survival.

A homosexual man told me that most homosexual men are macho types like heterosexual men. — baker

If you knew more about the gay community, you’d learn that that’s a pose. Whereas for many straight men, a non self-conscious macho comes naturally, it’s more of a deliberate performance for many gay men, such as in the leather community.

This is shocking insanity but is apparently the new norm: https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/gabriel-mac-essay.html

"On the day I heard that my penis would be huge, I sobbed."

"When I’d asked the surgeon how big my impending penis was going to be, he could only guess, pointing to the reusable water bottle in my hand, a metal cylinder nine inches in circumference: “Smaller than that.”

“I would rather have died on the table than not had the surgery,” one Korean American guy with great sweaters responded (and, like everybody here, gave me permission to repeat), to a chorus of nodding Zoom heads."

"One of the nodding heads in the group belonged to a nonbinary white person who was still horizontal in recovery from having had, a week prior, the worst happen, which was that after their procedure, in which all the fat and skin had been stripped from their left forearm from wrist to nearly elbow, along with major nerves, an artery, and veins, and then shaped into a tube and connected, in careful layers, to skin and blood vessels and nerves in their pelvis, their new penis had failed."

"But here they were, already getting ready for their surgeons to harvest a whole other part of their body within the month with zero hesitation. Because those three days they’d had their penis, they said, before being rushed into an eight-hour surgery that couldn’t save it — the feeling of it, even just for one moment, even still bloody and painful and packed with stitches: worth it."

"I woke up last December in a hospital bed and before even glancing toward my lap, the room spinning from anesthesia and my lungs partially collapsed from four and a half hours on surgical ventilation and hundreds — plural — of stitches and a 40-square-inch hole in my thigh where I’d been skinned down to the muscle, I could suddenly feel, in a way I could never have fathomed, that this was what being alive was."

"I woke up last December in a hospital bed and before even glancing toward my lap, the room spinning from anesthesia and my lungs partially collapsed from four and a half hours on surgical ventilation and hundreds — plural — of stitches and a 40-square-inch hole in my thigh where I’d been skinned down to the muscle, I could suddenly feel, in a way I could never have fathomed, that this was what being alive was." — Andrew4Handel

Just shows you what lengths people will go to to find self-acceptance in a culture where the concept of psychological gender is still uncomprehended. I’m glad you at least comprehend the distinction between biological sex and gender. You will help to one day make such surgeries unnecessary. Because, of course, that’s the only thing that’s really going to stop it.

Just shows you what lengths people will go to to find self-acceptance in a culture where the concept of psychological gender is still uncomprehended. — Joshs

Do you think other people owe it to you to accept you and comprehend you?

Do you think other people owe it to you to accept you and comprehend you? — baker

They owe it to themselves to understand themselves, because failing to do so will cause unhappiness both in isolation and with others. This requires recognizing the bond between personal growth and overarching styles and themes of perception.

It’s interesting and perhaps revealing that your description of gender mentions only who one is sexually attracted to, and nothing about what I would consider to be a more central aspect of gender for many in the gay community , which has to do with a global perceptual-affective style, of which sexual attraction is merely one small aspect. For those who dont grasp this , it is incoherent to talk about gayness outside of sexual attraction, and I think that is part of the problem. — Joshs

You seem to be saying that ignorance of gender identity theory is part of the problem and Bitter Crank seems to be saying that “delusion” is problematic, or rather that sex/gender cannot be changed. It’s not clear if BC believes sex and gender can be more or less independent of each other.

Personally, I have no problem with separating biological sex and gender identity or ‘style’. It makes me wonder where sexual attraction fits best though. Is sexual attraction more biological sex or more a part of psychological gender? The fact that some transsexuals are not gay seems to indicate that it’s more biological sex, and also that many gay people’s gender matches their biological sex.