Can someone enlighten me? Why the demand for condemnation? Are we here to discuss or just to show we're on the right side? — jamalrob
...all of absolutely no use to us in understanding how this was allowed to hspen, he could have just cut all that without effect, yes? — Isaac
Yes.Well, well. Quelle surprise! So, you are finally admitting that annexing Crimea wasn't Putin's idea but had been a strategic objective of Russia before the time of Putin. — Apollodorus
in Tajikistan there were both a US military base and a Russian military base. Did he bully the Central Asian states because they had contacts with the US military? No. Russia waited and worked behind the scenes. — ssu
... by showing that it is (in part) the US's fault, Europe's fault. Had we left well alone Putin would have been robbed of both strategic gain and narrative excuse, but our meddling to further our own economic interests has, in fact, provided both. — Isaac
If Putin is indeed the mad man everyone paints him, then why the fuck have the US and Europe spent the last decade poking him with a fucking stick? — Isaac
Which strategies for stopping Putin don't involve America? — Isaac
I see. So when Putin talks about...
the expansion of the NATO to the east, moving its military infrastructure closer to Russian borders.
...we should ignore what he says, all propaganda? — Isaac
Can people finally understand why Putin is a fucking threat and needs to be put down? — Christoffer
But... which is the main goal of having nuclear weapons? I do not see the value of having a destroyed world. Then, I do not see any powerful country interested on using them. — javi2541997
To say that a defensive alliance like NATO is an offensive threat to Russia when they make nations bordering to Russia members is just uneducated on what NATO actually is.
The truth is simple, NATO is NOT a threat to Russia other than blocking Putin's ability to easily invade and claim these nations for himself. — Christoffer
People need to understand that it's not Russia that is acting here, there is no Russia, there's only Putin. — Christoffer
That's certainly one theory, yes. Your supporting evidence is...? — Isaac
It's from a book by a guy named Sakwa. This is his third book on Putin, called the Putin Paradox. — frank
Can someone enlighten me? Why the demand for condemnation? Are we here to discuss or just to show we're on the right side? — jamalrob
I have a thing about recognizing victims. — frank
The talk of neonazis ruling Ukraine is simply and absurdly delusional. This has been explained to you again and again and you simply aren't willing to get it. — ssu
Simply put, the idea that Putin wouldn't have invaded Ukraine, would have left it alone, if only NATO and the US had kept to it's own devices and been passive is not credible. Because all the issues I have many times repeated. — ssu
Do you actually just listen to Putin and take his word as truth? — Christoffer
Not actually. US military presence in a country is US military presence in a country.I expect that was all to do with Afghanistan and probably not very comparable. — jamalrob
He doesn't care, he's old, he wants to be remembered — Christoffer
I often face it with Russian stuff. I have to show I'm passionately anti-Putin before people pay attention to anything I'm saying. — jamalrob
What exactly do you mean by 'wearing one's heart on one's sleeve' in this context?
Where has anyone suggested that you need preface every paragraph in such a way, or else you are a monster? — Amity
Who am I that I need to show how I feel about things? — jamalrob
Can someone enlighten me? Why the demand for condemnation? Are we here to discuss or just to show we're on the right side? — jamalrob
I'm much closer to the people affected than most members of the forum. I personally know Ukrainian people here in Russia who are worried about their children in Ukraine. My wife has many Ukrainian friends in Kiev who are sending her messages and videos, frightened people who are leaving the city to get away from the conflict — jamalrob
I don't usually mention these things here, because they have nothing to do with why the invasion happened, don't shed any light on the position of the Russian government, don't reveal what divisions there might be among people in power in Russia and thus how the regime might change, and so on. — jamalrob
Do people need me to tell them that war is bad, that invading other countries is bad?
That's where I'm coming from — jamalrob
How have you determined that his motive is to create a Russian empire, other than taking (some of) his words as truth? All you've done differently is decided in advance which of his words you're going to believe - the ones which fit the narrative you've already committed to. — Isaac
He will be remembered as a leader who switch on a war in XXI century. It sounds lunatic if he is somehow proud of it — javi2541997
If the best you can do is "You're wrong...because of all the things I've said already" then it's clear this conversation isn't going anywhere" — Isaac
How have you determined that his motive is to create a Russian empire, other than taking (some of) his words as truth? — Isaac
And lastly, that part of history really hasn't anything to do with the current government of Ukraine, so what is the connection to this thread? Or is it just a side mention? — ssu
Brave citizens fighting for their lives. — Amity
Yes. Brave, brave neo-nazis... — Isaac
Yes. Brave, brave neo-nazis... — Isaac
The whole book? I don't suppose you'd be willing to present any of here... Otherwise "what I'm saying is true...it's in a book" isn't awfully helpful. Do you think there aren't books blaming it all on American imperialism? — Isaac
Fucking disgusting. — SophistiCat
Hello and thank you for the links.
I note that the first article is from 2015 with a particular focus on a woman's group.
Do you think that all the citizens who must stay and fight against an invasion are the same?
— Amity
How could I possibly? No. Just disrupting the rosy media-friendly picture of the poor underdog Ukrainians being set upon by nasty thugish Russia. — Isaac
That is unfortunate but not really what is happening in this thread, I don't think.
I hope Isaac answers my questions. — Amity
The connection to this thread:
Brave citizens fighting for their lives. — Amity
Yes. Brave, brave neo-nazis... — Isaac
Fucking disgusting. — SophistiCat
Ukraine’s National Guard ...which include a thousand-strong neo-Nazi unit. — https://labourheartlands.com/uk-denies-it-agreed-to-train-neo-nazi-linked-ukraine-unit/
No, he was driven by a narcissistic ambition to be known. There are thousands of examples of this all around the world. It's just a matter of time before a leader of a nation has the same kind of mentality. — Christoffer
we're required to pretend they're all "brave, brave citizens" rather than discuss the complexity of supporting one side over the other (in disputes over independence) when each have unsavoury elements.
That's what I mean by having to wear our hearts on our sleeves. I didn't answer because I don't see discussion of it as relevant. — Isaac
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