Are you equating sensory data and reason? — ZzzoneiroCosm
What life sustaining actions are not characterized by the description I gave — Garrett Travers
any sensory data informed behavior with reason, — Garrett Travers
I encourage you to read the first chapter of Introduction to Objectivist Epistemology, just the first. If you still think she's useless, I'll never bother you about her again. — Garrett Travers
You skipped again my response. If you are going to keep doing that, then there is no hope that you'll ever get around to addressing my point. — TonesInDeepFreeze
You have lost the argument about reason and survival. You persist in it only by skipping my rebuttals. — TonesInDeepFreeze
But, even more interesting is that you should recognize that reasoning includes accepting premises for sake of argument. So, in that way, even if I granted P1 and P2 as true, they don't imply C. — TonesInDeepFreeze
f you think C is implied by anything, then what premises other than P1 and P2 do you adduce? — TonesInDeepFreeze
If you keep saying that you won't address that question until we have settled P1, which is a dead horse by now, then I take it that you wish to avoid facing that P1 and P2 do not entail C. — TonesInDeepFreeze
All this to say the brain controls everything? Am I following? — ZzzoneiroCosm
Yes, as far as I know, this it what the evidence suggests. — Garrett Travers
I can't make this out. Can you rephrase? — ZzzoneiroCosm
To my eye it suggests a central hub of activity, a primary nexus or central station - but I don't see the element of control you'd like me to see. — ZzzoneiroCosm
I don't do gish gallops, fallacies, or any other form of bullshit. — Garrett Travers
If you want to argue with me, we will address the premises one at a time — Garrett Travers
But, even more interesting is that you should recognize that reasoning includes accepting premises for sake of argument. So, in that way, even if I granted P1 and P2 as true, they don't imply C.
— TonesInDeepFreeze
We aren't there yet, we'll have to see, won't we? — Garrett Travers
Garrett sees you're concerned about addressing premises individually, because he may just demonstrate to you that you're incorrect, and thereby embarrass this forceful display you've put on for everyone. — Garrett Travers
I suggest the latter, and I insist again that we finish up with P1 before moving on. — Garrett Travers
I'm finished with P1 and P2. — TonesInDeepFreeze
Any behavior informed by sensory data, is in fact an example of reason. — Garrett Travers
Too concerned to address even a single premise. — Garrett Travers
Come back when you're ready. — Garrett Travers
Thank you for steelmanning the position so far, I appreciate it. — Garrett Travers
What does "informed" mean? — TonesInDeepFreeze
A baby has the sensory data of a shiny object. I don't take it that the baby uses reason and then make a reasoned decision to smile in response. — TonesInDeepFreeze
When a hammer is tapped on my knee, I have sensory data, but I don't take it that it is a function of reason that I lift my leg in response. — TonesInDeepFreeze
No prob. My interest here is mostly in getting a clear picture of Randianism. — ZzzoneiroCosm
Anything you're disagreeing with so far that you'd like me to clear up? — Garrett Travers
If you have anything to say about Paul Ryan, I'd be interested. I suppose you'll say his is a corrupted Randianism. — ZzzoneiroCosm
Paul Ryan is a statist who is paid a living through theft, to be a representative of a monopoly on force that violates human rights. One needn't not suppose, dear fellow, but assume it with confidence. — Garrett Travers
There is something in Rand's work that attracts these conservative types. Smaller government and less welfare, more Freedom as in Free Trade. — ZzzoneiroCosm
the process by which the brain gathers data to allow the human to interact in the world — Garrett Travers
By about 12 and up, we start being able to generate concepts independently from our parent's interpolations. — Garrett Travers
When a hammer is tapped on my knee, I have sensory data, but I don't take it that it is a function of reason that I lift my leg in response.
— TonesInDeepFreeze
That's exactly what is going on. Data has informed your behavior to induce a removal of yourself from the recurrence of a homeostasis disrupting event, that could potentially kill you. It is reason. — Garrett Travers
That being said, the reasoning process is in fact still unfolding even in an underdeveloped brain. But, it doesn't have all the systems, so it is operating on delimited functions. basical animal instinct. — Garrett Travers
There is no left/right conservative/liberal dichotamy, just the Capitol Class with all our labor, and all the people they pay the media to keep incensed with one another. — Garrett Travers
So, that we can finish up with P1. — Garrett Travers
Then that includes even automatic response such as knee jerk.
Of course, you can skip that point and declare yet again that you are right. — TonesInDeepFreeze
That doesn't vitiate my point that many behaviors are not exercise of reason, unless 'reason' is taken in such a broad sense that it is robbed of particular meaning.
The fact that as people mature they use reason more and more does not support the claim that all behavior toward survival is based in reason. — TonesInDeepFreeze
It appears that the reason Objectivism makes this incorrect overstatement, this implausible reduction, is that it is needed to drive other conclusions about ethics and politics. But even granting the reductions, the conclusions don't follow. — TonesInDeepFreeze
And if you allow that there are animal instincts that contribute to survival, then we can see also that there are human animal instincts that contribute to survival. So reason is not the only means toward human survival, unless you think lower non-human animals are exercising reason too. — TonesInDeepFreeze
It's too bad you won't admit that "it's all reason" is an overstatement. You would be on better ground to stress the great importance of reason, and to devise arguments about ethics and politics with reason as an important prong, rather than falling into your own trap of saying it is only by reason that man survives. — TonesInDeepFreeze
Are there any current American political figures, journalists, commentators, consultants, activists you admire? — Joshs
P1. if humans are generated by natural processes with reason (logic, rationality, conceptual faculty) being their means of survival.
P2. and if it is only through this conceptual faculty of reason that humans are capable of living a life according to the values he/she develops with said faculty
C. then the only moral system of society is one in which each human is free to pursue their own values to live and achieve their own goals — Garrett Travers
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