. I fucked up the syllogism — Garrett Travers
that doesn't mean that any of the arguments I have made outside of the syllogism are wrong — Garrett Travers
I already stated that if an animal does use sensory data to inform action, then that constitutes reason — Garrett Travers
that doesn't mean that any of the arguments I have made outside of the syllogism are wrong — Garrett Travers
It is very key to the Objectivist argument.
You did touch on it when you mentioned that animals don't use reason.
For sake of argument, let's set aside dolphins, ravens, primates and such, and let's simplify to say that only humans use reason. — TonesInDeepFreeze
The Objectivist view then is that the essential property of being human is reason. Then with that essentiality premise, the argument goes through some steps to conclude that selfishness, and only selfishness, is ethical. — TonesInDeepFreeze
That's true. But I'd encourage to try the syllogism again. Maybe there's a long logical form your argument would fit into.
There's lots of logicians around,.:smile: — ZzzoneiroCosm
In that view, a remarkably unintelligent bug senses things and acts in response, so the bug is using reason. And that is consistent with the notion of 'reason' in science?
And your notion of 'reason' seems to make it untenable to say that reason is the essential attribute of humans. — TonesInDeepFreeze
Correct. Your other arguments are wrong for their own reasons. — TonesInDeepFreeze
I literally just aced a logic class last semester, I flubbed this syllogism pretty hard. — Garrett Travers
We don't have to set aside creatures that constitute a gap in knowledge regarding to what degree a term like reason applies to them, they're irrelevant. — Garrett Travers
If reason is how we individually generate concepts, and if concepts are how humans survive, and if concepts include ethics, then ethics should be predicated on individual human survival. — Garrett Travers
reason is how we individually generate concepts — Garrett Travers
And if concepts include values, standards, methods, interests, or any other individually generated group of ideas from sensory data, then it follows that the individual's reason used to produce them is the proper predicate for them. — Garrett Travers
if one values reason, then he/she values himself in his basic nature as one who reasons. This is the selfishness Rand is speaking of. — Garrett Travers
It is the essential element of human ability to survive in the world. — Garrett Travers
Objectivism explicitly mentions the difference between humans an animals, as part of the explanation of the Objectivist notion of reason. — TonesInDeepFreeze
There is no logical form there to suggest that those premises entail the conclusion that an act is ethical if and only if it is selfish. — TonesInDeepFreeze
Merely responding to stimuli is not enough to constitute concept formation. — TonesInDeepFreeze
What does "proper predicate for" mean? — TonesInDeepFreeze
Objectivism holds that we value reason because it is our means to survive. It would then be circular to say that we value our survival because we value reason. — TonesInDeepFreeze
And I value myself as one who reasons. But I don't subscribe to the Objectivist notion that actions are ethical if and only if they are selfish. — TonesInDeepFreeze
You're welcome for my having pointed out that essentiality (which you have omitted until now) not just necessity, is part of the Objectivist argument,., — TonesInDeepFreeze
We don't survive in any other way. — Garrett Travers
When I first retract my fingertips from fire, I was not organizing perceptual units in conceptual terms by following the principles of logic. When a bug responds to stimuli, it is not organizing perceptual units in conceptual terms by following the principles of logic. When I immediately turn my head upon hearing a crashing sound, I am not organizing perceptual units in conceptual terms by the principles of logic. — TonesInDeepFreeze
We don't survive in any way other than a combination of many faculties that are not reason with the faculty of reason. — TonesInDeepFreeze
I don't use all words sometimes — Garrett Travers
You omitted a key concept in the argument. It's not a matter of whether you sometimes don't use all the terminology. — TonesInDeepFreeze
When I first retract my fingertips from fire, I was not organizing perceptual units in conceptual terms by following the principles of logic. When a bug responds to stimuli, it is not organizing perceptual units in conceptual terms by following the principles of logic. When I immediately turn my head upon hearing a crashing sound, I am not organizing perceptual units in conceptual terms by the principles of logic.
— TonesInDeepFreeze
On what level do you think this is true? You quite literally used the pain to inform future behavior. That's conceptual. — Garrett Travers
Reason is how those tools get used. — Garrett Travers
So animals conceptualize. — TonesInDeepFreeze
So animals conceptualize.
— TonesInDeepFreeze
What have I already said? — Garrett Travers
The concept is key. — TonesInDeepFreeze
Objectivism disagrees. — TonesInDeepFreeze
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