I said that science holds that reason and memory are inextricably linked. Meaning, if stimuli can be stored as memory to inform future behavior, then there's undoubtedly some level of reason going on. But, nobody would know how to determine that right now. — Garrett Travers
You've made specious arguments. I detailed the exact points of your speciousness. — TonesInDeepFreeze
"Some level of reason" is a partial retreat you arrived at after earlier making stronger claims. And still "some level of reason going on" disagrees with Objectivism anyway. — TonesInDeepFreeze
I will look at your link later to see what it says about any mere response to stimuli being any kind of reason. — TonesInDeepFreeze
Have you really been arguing this whole time that there are some things the body does autonomically that aid in survival? Very well. Duh. — Garrett Travers
"[H]umans are generated by natural processes with reason (logic, rationality, conceptual faculty) being their means of survival." — TonesInDeepFreeze
Breathing is a mechanism you need to live. — TonesInDeepFreeze
"Some level of reason" is a partial retreat you arrived at after earlier making stronger claims. And still "some level of reason going on" disagrees with Objectivism anyway.
— TonesInDeepFreeze
This is what I've said the whole time, and no it doesn't disagree with Objectivism. — Garrett Travers
And it has taken you all this time to recognize it. — TonesInDeepFreeze
My argument from the start has been there are attributes of humans other than reason that are needed for survival, therefore it is not correct to say that only reason is necessary for survival. That point needed to be made in response to your: — TonesInDeepFreeze
But reason is in the means of survival. It is part of a palette of means. — TonesInDeepFreeze
That it took me so long for you to recognize this does not make me childish; it arose only because of your own recalcitrance to grant an obvious point. Whether that recalcitrance is due to childishness, I don't opine. — TonesInDeepFreeze
a debate about how humans actively ensure their survival — Garrett Travers
I quite literally thought you were trying to say that breathing was in the realm of what we were discussing. — Garrett Travers
You claim that it is incorrect to say that Objectivism says that even the lowest creatures are using some level of reasoning? — TonesInDeepFreeze
It is, as I just quoted you omitting the means other than reason,. — TonesInDeepFreeze
people don't sustain themselves on autonomic functions, the brain does that — Garrett Travers
"How humans actively ensure their survival" requires definition. — TonesInDeepFreeze
And humans don't ensure their survival. No matter what we do, we can't ensure that you'll survive into the next minute. — TonesInDeepFreeze
So putting aside "ensuring", breathing definitely is active and necessary for survival. — TonesInDeepFreeze
And, again, the Objectivist argument is that it is only humans that use reason as the primary agency for survival. — TonesInDeepFreeze
me not understanding that that's literally all you were saying. — Garrett Travers
The brain does not do it alone. Reason doesn't ensure survival. And reason without other functions is even less reliable. So, it is not a good argument to base ethics on the mere fact that humans use reason, or even that reason in some sense "heads up" all the other functions. And the Objectivist claim that reason is primary only for humans does not entail that an act is ethical if and only if it is selfish. — TonesInDeepFreeze
I stated clearly that there's a difference between what happens when you respond in reflex, which informs later behavior, and what we know of the bug as far as the same phenomenon. — Garrett Travers
Clearly, it is not all that I am saying. It was part of an argument I layed out very clearly, and with any rebuttals needed to advance it against your specious replies, and even as your specious replies chronically skipped key points I made. — TonesInDeepFreeze
act in the world to ensure survival. — Garrett Travers
Seek, pursue, attempt, or direct. — Garrett Travers
So putting aside "ensuring", breathing definitely is active and necessary for survival.
— TonesInDeepFreeze
Sure, it just isn't in the realm of guided behavior or thought devised for survival. — Garrett Travers
You said that there are things we don't know about creatures, but for many posts you claimed that even the least response to stimuli involves reason (even, if I recall (I'm not going back now to find the quotes), that it is an instance of reason). I even pointed out that knee jerk is not exercise of reason, and you persisted to claim that it is (the point about knee jerk not being a survival mean is not relevant to the mere question of what is and is not reason).
Breathing is not exercise of reason, and not plausibly at any "level". So reason is not the only thing necessary for survival, which is to take exception to your original description in your earlier flubbed argument.
Now you move the goalposts to what is "in the same realm", while that is quite vague terminology, and my argument doesn't rely on realm anyway. — TonesInDeepFreeze
That is so specious.
I said that breathing is necessary and it's not reason. You reply, essentially yeah but its's not reason (guided thought). — TonesInDeepFreeze
And, again, the Objectivist argument is that it is only humans that use reason as the primary agency for survival.
— TonesInDeepFreeze
Yes, it is the human's primary agency for survival. — Garrett Travers
You are equating autonomic functions with the cognition by which humans standardize all of their behavior. — Garrett Travers
Breathing is an action directed to survival. — TonesInDeepFreeze
"You cannot do math without reason."
"Yeah but you cannot do reason without breathing."
Okay. Not the same ballpark of stuff. — Garrett Travers
That is false. I asserted no such equation. I said that both or necessary for survival. I did not in any way claim that they are equal (in a sense of identity) nor equal in importance (I don't even know how that would be measured) nor equal in primacy ('primacy" not even defined) nor equivalent in any way. They share the property of being necessary; that is not a claim of "equality". — TonesInDeepFreeze
Breathing is an action directed to survival.
— TonesInDeepFreeze
What kind of survival? Can babies live by just being left alone to breathe? — Garrett Travers
'ballpark' is abysmally vague.
And my argument doesn't require that one is "in the ballpark" of the other. I have explained that; you skip, — TonesInDeepFreeze
an attempt to reduce the role reason plays in human survival, which supercedes that of breathing. — Garrett Travers
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