You see, the smartest thinkers not only saw that NATO expansion would get the Russian Bear angry. They also saw the obvious imperialism aspirations that Russia has too. Especially when it came to Ukraine. — ssu
How about then reading what for example John Mearsheimer so well said far earlier: — ssu
the United States and its European allies
share most of the responsibility for the crisis. The taproot of the trouble is NATO enlargement, the central element of a larger strategy to move Ukraine out of Russia’s orbit and integrate it into the West. At the same time, the EU’s expansion eastward and the West’s backing of the pro-democracy movement in Ukraine—beginning with the Orange Revolution in 2004—were critical elements, too.
The new government in Kiev was pro-Western and anti-Russian to the core, and it contained four vhigh-ranking members who could legitimately be labeled neofascists. Although the full extent of U.S. involvement has not yet come to light, it is clear that Washington backed the coup
Putin’s actions should be easy to comprehend. A huge expanse of flat land that Napoleonic France, imperial Germany, and Nazi Germany all crossed to strike at Russia itself, Ukraine serves as a bu*er state of enormous strategic importance to Russia. No Russian leader would tolerate a military alliance that was Moscow’s mortal enemy until recently moving into Ukraine. Nor would any Russian leader stand idly by while the West helped install a government there that was determined to integrate Ukraine into the West.
Clear and succinct summary, thanks. — Amity
The number of influential and knowledge people in the West who understood that what the West was doing would lead to fucking tragedy, is mind boggling — StreetlightX
A fair amount of that criticism was from the 1990s — frank
if the US and Europe do not have active imperialist interests apart from some kind of leftovers from the 1990s — StreetlightX
It is also the case that you literally counted wrong, or simply made a false statement. — StreetlightX
The fantasy that the US is responsible for everything on earth stems from overestimating US power. It's a form of fetish, an illusion of omnipotence that anglo-saxons are often subject to these days; well, those who still live in the fifties. — Olivier5
I don't think Europe or the US has ever seen central Europe as some great prize. — frank
But the fucking clowns above me would rather just talk about how Putin Bad herp drep, more war pls. — StreetlightX
frank
Mm, a great prize or no, the aim of market creation and neoliberalization (i.e. privatization, austerity, destruction of workers rights and security) - which is not just an 'aim' but something actively happening and continuing to happen in Central Europe - is high up on the agenda. — StreetlightX
Very few people have been talking about Ukraine's opening up of it's agriculture to foreign capital, and how, in Michael Roberts' words, institutions like the World Bank were "positively drooling at this opening up of Ukraine’s key industry to capitalist enterprise: [quoting the WB]: 'This is without exaggeration a historic event, made possible by the leadership of the President of Ukraine, the will of the parliament and the hard work of the government'." — StreetlightX
And speaking of 'free markets and democracy', let's not forget how anglo 'shock therapy' was directly responsible for Russia being shitty country it is today: — StreetlightX
The average American senator voting for mitary aid to Ukraine or Poland doesn't understand any of that. At least I don't think they do. — frank
I think Putin overcame the 1990s pretty well. Free markets did help them recover from the Soviet collapse. — frank
The Russian economy is a ‘one-trick’ pony, relying mostly on energy and natural resources exports. After a short boom from rising energy prices from 1998 to 2010, the economy has basically stagnated. Although Russia’s economy is larger than it was in 2014 in real terms, final domestic demand is still at its pre-2014 level. And cumulative GDP growth over this period was only positive because exports were 17% higher in real terms in 2019 than in 2014. Russia’s capital stock is still lower in real terms compared to 1990, while the average profitability of that capital remains very low.
And if you really are implying that Christoffer is not "playing out Top Gun fantasies", I think you need to look again at his posts. — jamalrob
The tragedy is that people (exemplified by@Christoffer here, but rife in the Western media) see playing out their Top Gun fantasies as more important than achieving a settlement which actually prevents conflict.
— Isaac
Again and again, you misrepresent. You choose an opponent, like Christoffer as an example of 'people playing out Top Gun fantasies...' calling this a 'tragedy'. — Amity
The US clearly has a strategic interest in Ukraine. It clearly has an anti-Russia agenda. — Isaac
Well, I thought that comment of Isaac's was fair, and not unprovoked — jamalrob
frank
Mm, and who do you think the think tanks think for exactly? American Senators are not paid to understand. They are paid to implement policy. — StreetlightX
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