We could still fail better next time, that's true! :grin:

With fossil fuel energy prices increasing in countries such as the UK, could this crisis catalyse the 'green economy'?

With fossil fuel energy prices increasing in countries such as the UK, could this crisis catalyse the 'green economy'? — Changeling

What well over 100 dollar oil price does is that it stops the economy like a handbrake.

Just to be clear, you think Putin is to blame for invading Ukraine, right? And that Putin did an immoral thing by attacking Ukraine?

stops the economy like a handbrake. — ssu

Some would argue this is needed: a pause and reflection. I'm looking for silver linings...

Some would argue this is needed: a pause and reflection. I'm looking for silver linings... — Changeling

Ah yes!

Economic depression: time when wealth inequality decreases! When poor get poorer, but the rich also lose a lot.

Same thing happens during wars.

Silver linings, you know...

What well over 100 dollar oil price does is that it stops the economy like a handbrake. — ssu

Stagflation here we come. Thanks a lot, whoever's fault this is.

because of your Finnish-ness, I can't tell if you're being sarcastic... :chin:

If we are to actually find out what nation should "lead the world" with "exporting political and cultural forms", the only thing we can practically use to figure that out would be to look at the indexes of life quality and other similar lists.

Then figure out which nation gets generally the highest between all statistics and use that to "fix" other nations — Christoffer

Imagine that we look at all the plants in the world and decide which one is the best. Maybe we decide it's corn after looking at Iowa.

So we decide everybody should grow as much corn as possible. Iowa will continue to thrive because Iowa is the perfect mother to the corn plant.

But Gotland will do poorly. Gotland is a terrible mother for corn. It's a good mother for radishes.

So we should let each mother grow what she grows best. We find that out by observing.

this "blame NATO" game is being played all over the interwebs and in traditional media as well. — Olivier5

I think it is to an extent. However, the fact that putina has now escalated everything to all-out war means that his 'hybrid warfare' is no longer covert and it's now out in the open how much of a prick he is. This should lead to more unity in the liberal West after years of fragmentation.

More silver linings...

Just to be clear, you think Putin is to blame for invading Ukraine, right? And that Putin did an immoral thing by attacking Ukraine? — RogueAI

Why is that even important? Are you considering elevating me to the judiciary? What does my moral judgement of Putin have to do with anything at all?

I just can't get my head around this. A series of events led to the absolute carnage we're seeing in Ukraine and all you lot seem to care about is who we should most blame, and some kind of perverse competition for who can condemn them most vehemently.

Honestly, who gives a fuck. Let's try and make sure it doesn't happen ever again. Let's every single actor in this tragedy work out what they could have done to prevent this so that we have snowball's chance in hell of not living the next 50 years with the same shit going on.

because of your Finnish-ness, I can't tell if you're being sarcastic... :chin: — Changeling

That's sarcastic.

Let's try and make sure it doesn't happen ever again. — Isaac

To do that, we need to know who screwed up, so we don't repeat their mistakes. What percent of this mess do you think is Putin's fault?

Finally...an intelligent comment!

Hey, my comments were intelligent.
But yes, 180 Proof's was more intelligent.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/3/1/ukraine-on-edge-as-russia-continues-its-assault-liveblog

US postpones ballistic missile test to avoid escalation: Pentagon

“In an effort to demonstrate that we have no intention in engaging in any actions that can be misunderstood or misconstrued, the decretary of defense has directed that our Minuteman III intercontinental ballistic missile test launch scheduled for this week to be postponed,” Pentagon spokesperson John Kirby told reporters.

“We did not take this decision lightly, but instead to demonstrate that we are a responsible nuclear power.”

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Unsure if this is a PR move or not, but it's smart. It shows some glimmer of non-aggression. Not clear if these sanctions are going to end up helping or not.

It's going to be interesting to see what China ends up doing, or if stays as is.

I was being a little hyperbolic. Of course there have been other intelligent comments, yours included.

I guess that means Putin is not an urban sophisticate. — Bitter Crank

Sounds like a reasonable guess to me. I think Russians in general tend to be a bit less sophisticated than West Europeans because they have a relatively large rural population and because their upper and middle classes were wiped out by the communists.

But I think foundational mythology starts with one’s own personal myth about who one is, how one has come into existence and has developed over time, what qualities, abilities, and skills one has, in what ways one is different and better than others, etc.

This is then expanded to encompass one’s family, village, and tribe, and culminates in ideas like that “Anglo-Saxons” are a superior race, with other nations occupying various degrees of inferiority and some, like the Germans (or “Huns”) having only the vaguest resemblance to human beings.

So, it looks like the modern myth is really just a means to glorify oneself and put everyone else down. Perhaps ancient myths weren’t very different, the main difference being that nowadays the mythology is largely the product of political interests in collaboration with the news, social, and entertainment media.

I think the Ukraine war is a good opportunity to study the mechanism through which modern myth is created, reinforced, and propagated.

Having created the narrative of Putin’s desire to “recreate the Soviet Union” (which is absolute nonsense as Putin’s party United Russia is more Conservative than Marxist-Leninist), there is a clear attempt to exaggerate the invasion beyond all proportion. Putin, Biden has claimed, “sought to shake the foundations of the free world … He thought he could roll into Ukraine and the world would roll over…”. Zelensky’s aide has warned that the war 'could be a prologue to a global massacre”!

Next, it has been claimed that Putin is “mentally ill” or suffers from “neuro/physiological health issues” or, alternatively, is taking steroids high doses of which can result in “having strange or frightening thoughts”.

Apparently, Putin also suffers from a “weakened immune system” which is why he sits at a distance from foreign visitors. This, of course, ignores the fact that he routinely shakes hands or stands next to, other leaders like the president of Belarus, the president of Brazil, the prime minister of Pakistan, or China’s Xi …. But, hey, why spoil a good story when it serves propaganda purposes? :grin:

Then there is the myth of the “Ghost of Kiev”, an invisible Ukrainian jet pilot who apparently flies high in the sky and shoots down one Russian warplane after another, which, unfortunately, has been debunked as Ukrainian government propaganda based on footage from a combat flight simulator.

The story of three Russian members of parliament protesting against the invasion which is sold as proof of anti-Putin dissent but ignores the fact that the Russian parliament has 450 seats of which 325 are United Russia and seemingly, so far, behind Putin. And so it goes on and on.

The information and media war has turned into a game of "Spot the Myth" :grin:

Meantime, people of color fleeing Ukraine are attacked by Polish nationalists.

Welcome to NATO’s brave new world ….

But I still love my country, and I relish its cultural output--not all of it uniformly. Much of American culture was imported from elsewhere--like coffee which has never been grown here. Coffee is a very good thing.

Love of and pride in my country may be based on certain delusions, though, like: "In God We Trust", "E Pluribus Unum", "one nation, under God, with liberty and justice for all", and so on. No, I don't actually think that God prefers the United States over Australia or Mongolia. I doubt God exists at all, and as for liberty and justice for all... I rest my case.

[...] The same can be said for a lot of Soviet citizens, Russians, German, French, Spanish, Italian, Chinese, Japanese, Arabian, Israeli, et al citizens. People tend to like where they live, and they all maintain a mix of realistic and delusional ideas about their homeland.

Were any of us absolutely honest, realistic, and totally non-delusional, we'd have to consider blowing our brains out forthwith. — Bitter Crank

I've given some thoughts to this excellent post. Thanks for it and others on the subject.

I agree that nations are based on myths, rather than 'lies'.

However, i see a non sequitur between your conclusion and the body of your post, where you acknowledge a great deal of American 'unpleasantness' yet conclude again and again (and rightly so, I feel exactly the same): "I still love my country". Your post proves that it is possible to love one's country and yet face its history without blinking, so to speak. It doesn't support the conclusion that one must turn a blind eye to past misdeeds and injustice to survive as a citizen of any country. On the contrary.

Second, you know the well worn argument that if you love your country you should try and better it, and help repair it if you can. Part of that involves sorting out a messy historical heritage the best we can, and try and find some peace with the past.

Because ultimately, these foundational myths are aspirations. Liberté, Égalité, Fraternité. These are things my people believe in, i.e. aspire to, not real things existing now in France in the absolute or having existed at any point in history. Understood as such, as a national quest of certain common values, nationalism makes more sense to me than as the sacred defense of the lares (and lies) of our tribal ancestors. The future can be better than the past all the while remaining faithful to it, if we try to work on our past and learn from it in a (semi) objective, scientific manner.

And we don't need to topple all the statues either. I agree some heroisation / mythification can be useful here or there to build this common core of political values.

Last argument: some of this nationalist historiography written by past generations, with its all its well-meaning nation-building mythos, also carries gross prejudice against neighbouring nations, grudges from way back, and long-held hatred too. They help perpetuate xenophobia.

Weird.

Why white evangelical Christians are Putin's biggest American fan base (Mar 2, 2022)

It is the MT Greene version of Falangist politics.

but you can bet that this "blame NATO" game is being played all over the interwebs and in traditional media as well. — Olivier5

Actually the game is two-fold; there's Russian blame NATO and there's Western blame NATO critics. So, when you give reasons for the conflict that involve NATO actions, Western propagandists will spin you as giving justifications for the Russian invasion. And when you condemn the invasion, Russian propagandists will spin you as denying NATO involvement. Seeing as both justifying the invasion and denying NATO involvement are bonkers, you get to be strawmanned into oblivion by both sides. This thread is riddled with that kind of thing. Those of us with any sense ignore it and the posters who propagate it here.

Unsure if this is a PR move or not, but it's smart. It shows some glimmer of non-aggression. — Manuel

I think that when Putin raised the readiness level of his nuclear forces, the Biden administration did the right thing: It didn't do anything with it's nuclear forces.

I took that to mean the guns have already been cocked and aimed long ago.

Having an opponent remind everybody of that is odd. 'Oh crap, I forgot I could wipe Russia off the map if I punched in the correct code.'

As far as I've read, they matched Russia's nuclear threat level. But cancelling drills is definitely smart, something Trump or a Republican would likely not do, given how insane the Republicans are.

What I am questioning is the extent of the sanctions. I understand there needs to be a response to aggression, but kicking Russia off all sports and getting most of the banking system of SWIFT - minus energy - is a gamble, I think.

It didn't do anything with it's nuclear forces. — ssu

As far as I've read, they matched Russia's nuclear threat level. — Manuel

I took that to mean the guns have already been cocked and aimed long ago — Paine

Sadly, President Biden didn't personally inform me of his atomic intentions. But we certainly would not necessarily know that nuclear policy had changed even one iota. The missile silos are always manned, so one wouldn't notice the daily shift change. A key portion of our nuclear weapons are on board submarines, about which we know little (in terms of where they are, will be next, and who their launched missiles will obliterate. B52s? Some of them are still in service, but I don't think they have a role to play in nuclear warfare, any more. I could be mistaken about that. But I wouldn't expect to see the B52 fleet taking off and circling somewhere over northern Canada, waiting for final instructions.

That's a great film.

If something good can come out of this disaster, it's that people are once again aware of the threat of nuclear war and how we could all perish with the push of a few buttons.

But - and this is important - if Russia is not given a way out, in terms of diplomatic "saving face" gesture of sorts, we could be in real trouble.

Many people (not necessarily here) often take talk of this kind to be silly or extravagant or fantasy, but it isn't, the MAD nuclear policy is still here and very dangerous.

All it takes in one mistake.

All it takes in one mistake — Manuel

Yes. I asked that some time ago on a forum. Before this situation. There are about 10 000 of these damned nuclear warheads active. A small thing or mad mind can make it happen. I was told not to worry. Complementarity, MAD, balanced power, etc. Nothing can go wrong. I wonder what they tell now...

Yes. The usual argument is well X person (or country) wouldn't want their families killed.

Sure. But then why even have nukes at all? Surely X wouldn't want some accident to happen that would kill their family.

It's irrelevant. Reading one move wrongly or confusing a bluff with something else suffices.

Sure. But then why even have nukes at all? — Manuel

Exactly.