the Biden administration did the right thing: It didn't do anything with it's nuclear forces.
— ssu

Publicly. We have no clue really. — Benkei

Do you trust Biden or Putin more with nuclear weapons? Do you trust the chain of command in the US more than Putin's? Everyone can argue that the US also has nukes and they're the only nation who actually used them, but all of that just smells over-simplification from the regular "the US is to blame for everything"-people. It can also be that because they are the only ones who used nukes, they know the consequences, the national guilt, the terror that it implies. There are reasons for the miles-long red tape before even touching the keys of the "football", it's because it should be extremely problematic to fire a nuke.

The question is really: do you trust Putin more than the US when it comes to who would initiate total annihilation?

We must confront Russian propaganda – even when it comes from those we respect

I don't always agree with George Monbiot but I think he's right here. Pilger really is just a tankie these days, soft on anything that positions itself against the US.

Among the worst disseminators of Kremlin propaganda in the UK are people with whom I have, in the past, shared platforms and made alliances. The grim truth is that, for years, a segment of the “anti-imperialist” left has been recycling and amplifying Putin’s falsehoods. This segment is by no means representative: many other leftists have staunchly and consistently denounced Russian imperialism, just as they rightly denounce the imperialism of the US and UK. But it is, I think, an important one.

I don't always agree with George Monbiot but I think he's right here. Pilger really is just a tankie these days, soft on anything that positions itself against the US.

Among the worst disseminators of Kremlin propaganda in the UK are people with whom I have, in the past, shared platforms and made alliances. The grim truth is that, for years, a segment of the “anti-imperialist” left has been recycling and amplifying Putin’s falsehoods. This segment is by no means representative: many other leftists have staunchly and consistently denounced Russian imperialism, just as they rightly denounce the imperialism of the US and UK. But it is, I think, an important one. — jamalrob

I think people who fall too far into their ideological bias tend to just agree with anything that follows the same rhetoric as themselves. So if Putin start having similar rhetoric, even if he lies in order to reach some strategic end goal, people who would usually be strongly opposed to him start to embrace his words.

This is why the act of trying to prevent as much of your own biases and fallacies as possible when arguing is the only way to speak as truthfully as possible for a human being.

Both the US and Russia seek to expand an empire. But personally, I prefer the US clinical approach as a lesser bad (even if it still ends up killing people), than the Putin-led bombardment of civilians and nations to force them to be ruled over. There's a reason that one type prevailed over the other through the 20th century. At least we in the west can shout and talk about the US imperialism, even right to the leader's faces without being killed or imprisoned. There is a clear less bad and overwhelmingly bad in all of this, even if the usual suspects of anti-imperialists think everything is equally bad in a black and white way.

This is why the act of trying to prevent as much of your own biases and fallacies as possible when arguing is the only way to speak as truthfully as possible for a human being. — Christoffer

So I guess if we're to look for a reason why your own posts are such garbage, we have to look at something aside from bias?

Yes, it was fake news on my part, can't find a source. Very sorry about posting that.

Thanks for pointing it out.

So I guess if we're to look for a reason why your own posts are such garbage, we have to look at something aside from bias? — jamalrob

If you brand everything I write as garbage, then I guess you have no bias at all, right? I would like to add logic and rational deduction to that as well, since there seems to be a rather lacking area in here.

I also wonder why you, as a moderator, write such a post as the one you just did? Just blatantly dismissing everything I write is garbage. Are you seriously saying this, or just because you don't agree with me? I guess this forum changed its rules. I've at least tried to form rational reasoning arguments, requested for it, requested a logical deduction from others, but yeah... doesn't matter it seems.

Do you trust Biden or Putin more with nuclear weapons? Do you trust the chain of command in the US more than Putin's? Everyone can argue that the US also has nukes and they're the only nation who actually used them, but all of that just smells over-simplification from the regular "the US is to blame for everything"-people. It can also be that because they are the only ones who used nukes, they know the consequences, the national guilt, the terror that it implies. There are reasons for the miles-long red tape before even touching the keys of the "football", it's because it should be extremely problematic to fire a nuke.

The question is really: do you trust Putin more than the US when it comes to who would initiate total annihilation? — Christoffer

Again, what's up with the fucking childish questions? I question the US narrative and your reply is, who do you trust more? Seriously?I don't trust either, especially considering the US is the only country that ever used nukes. Twice.

The only relevant difference here is, it is unlikely that the US will attack the Netherlands.

Again, what's up with the fucking childish questions? I question the US narrative and your reply is, who do you trust more? Seriously?I don't trust either, especially considering the US is the only country that ever used nukes. Twice.

The only relevant difference here is, it is unlikely that the US will attack the Netherlands. — Benkei

You can question both, but who do you trust more in handling nukes? Why is that a childish question? And I also explained how the act of having used a nuke could have created much more care in how to handle the question of using nukes. A nation without that experience doesn't have the national guilt of it.

Do you mean to say that the US would attack nations as long as they're far away from western borders? Do you really think that would happen? How so? With everyone knowing they are the only nation who previously used them and with the knowledge of the extreme political fallout that would create? Do you mean that this is just as likely as a nation with an authoritarian dictator who silences his people, speaks of his empire, and actually threatens others with nuclear weapons? Are you seriously saying that you trust the US and Russia (Putin) on an equal level? I trust fucking China and even North Korea more than Russia, since Russia is the only nation actually showing aggressive behavior with their nukes.

Let go of your childish outbursts and either engage in the discussion or ignore what I write. Getting really fed up with everyone, even the mods, acting like this forum is fucking reddit.

The reason I won’t participate more in this thread is because of these kinds of replies.

My reply was directed at a particular point about a particular conversation.

I was careful with my words and the overall point was to look into the nuance of the situation and steer away over simplifying and casting good against evil. I was in agreed about looking for a resolution rather what I would frame as finger pointing and division for the sake of division.

Let go of your childish outbursts and either engage in the discussion or ignore what I write. Getting really fed up with everyone, even the mods, acting like this forum is fucking reddit. — Christoffer

Either write better posts or stick to reddit. Bye.

Do you trust Biden or Putin more with nuclear weapons? — Christoffer

I couldn't answer this question. I tried finding the one I trust less and then picking the other one but I couldn't do it that way round either. Maybe Biden. America is a civilised country. America would never be the first to use nuclear weapons. On the other hand, Russians are easily contented with a ready supply of vodka, animal fur, football teams and mansions in Knightsbridge. Making war would be the last thing on their minds. I give up.

The reason I won’t participate more in this thread is because of these kinds of replies.

My reply was directed at a particular point about a particular conversation.

I was careful with my words and the overall point was to look into the nuance of the situation and steer away over simplifying and casting good against evil. I was in agreed about looking for a resolution rather what I would frame as finger pointing and division for the sake of division. — I like sushi

Well, sorry if my post seems over-simplified, but I'm not sure there is a possible resolution to this conflict that is peaceful or de-escalating. Putin just said to Macron that he will not stop fighting.

I'm not promoting division for the sake of it. I just think that people analyze this situation with a normal measuring tape when Putin's actions are nowhere close to normal. Even people who research eastern politics and Putin say that something's happened to him the last two years, that he acts in a way that isn't the cold calculating KGB man he was before.

And what I see there is a threat of someone with a lot of power starting to act irrationally. This is very dangerous, especially since I cannot see any way out of it when he ignores everyone, including the UNs requests. He won't even open a humanitarian tunnel from the cities he's bombing, which means he doesn't care that civilians are trapped in there while he's bombing them.

There's very little nuance to be made in this and I'm not sure that is an over-simplification?

Either write better posts or stick to reddit. Bye. — Benkei

Your posts are mostly garbage as well, Benkei.

America would never be the first to use nuclear weapons. — Cuthbert

That's entirely ahistorical. And it was also on the table in 1962 during the Cuba crisis. So no. There's really no reason to "trust" either country to handle nukes responsibly.

:yawn:

Either write better posts or stick to reddit. Bye. — Benkei

Look at Cuthbert here, he actually engages with the question in a way I find more civil. You know, it is possible to do that.

I couldn't answer this question. I tried finding the one I trust less and then picking the other one but I couldn't do it that way round either. Maybe Biden. America is a civilised country. America would never be the first to use nuclear weapons. On the other hand, Russians are easily contented with a ready supply of vodka, animal fur, football teams and mansions in Knightsbridge. Making war would be the last thing on their minds. I give up. — Cuthbert

Yes, it is a very hard question actually. I think the only ones who would use nukes are the ones who just don't care if this world ends. I don't think the US want that and I don't think Russia want that. I can only hope that there are people under Putin who just say no to his order if he orders it, because I'm not so sure he cares about the world if it doesn't exist as he wants it to. But people around him don't want Russia to be a radioactive parking lot, so I don't think they would let him fire them off. But I have a hard time trusting a shorter chain of command.

There is, by every info available, probably less red tape involved in firing off a nuke in Russia than there is in the US. So maybe we don't have to value who to trust, we can just mathematically answer it. The longer the red tape is, the more likely that someone in the line of command personnel says no. And maybe that's the answer?

Look at Cuthbert here, he actually engages with the question in a way I find more civil. You know, it is possible to do that. — Christoffer

I have neither the time nor inclination to take your apparent fragile ego into consideration when clarifying the kindergarten level of your thinking.

have neither the time nor inclination to take your apparent fragile ego into consideration when clarifying the kindergarten level of your thinking. — Benkei

Your posts are fairly childish and uninformed, Benkei.

:yawn:

I have neither the time nor inclination to take your apparent fragile ego into consideration when clarifying the kindergarten level of your thinking. — Benkei

People speaking like this are probably the ones with an actual fragile ego. I'm surprised you are a mod in here. Show don't tell

I only joined this site to make one post in response to the essential truth of the post on page 26 by @baker, but I find that I cannot let the following bit of nonsense slide:

America would never be the first to use nuclear weapons. — Cuthbert

?!?

Ummm...

www.history.com/news/hiroshima-nagasaki-atomic-bomb-photos-before-after

The examination of premises is essential to making good arguments.

?!?

Ummm...

www.history.com/news/hiroshima-nagasaki-atomic-bomb-photos-before-after

The examination of premises is essential to making good arguments. — Joseph Zbigniewski

Today... that's the argument.

Would they act in that way today? I argued that because they are the only ones who've used nukes in history, that could also be a thing that makes them more careful with choosing that solution in any future conflict. There is a national guilt because of this in the US, it's not an act they're proud of and they know the political and humanitarian ramifications of such an act.

With Putin not even letting civilians out of cities that they're now bombing (while surrounding), I am not so sure he cares about the humanitarian aspect. And since he doesn't seem to care about the political ramifications of this invasion, why would he care about that if using a nuke?

Makes sense or not?

Just watch the invasion of Iraq and the bombing of Baghdad. Did you support the bombing of civilians? I didn't.

Nice to know there were no women and children killed in these explosions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxEjSr6rYXU

“Saddam, Bush, and Putin – they are all dogs,” al-Idreesi said. “And if Putin could learn anything from Iraq, that is this will be the beginning of his end.” — https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/2/27/as-russia-invades-ukraine-iraqis-remember-painful-war-memories

Al Jazeera - As Russia invades Ukraine, Iraqis remember painful war memories


He surely has way with words.

another cartoon! What a surprise.

it is unlikely that the US will attack the Netherlands — Benkei

True, but there is always the possibility of a nuclear winter lasting years. Like what happened in 1815-1816 following the volcanic eruption of mount Tambora on the island of Sumbawa in present-day Indonesia, then part of the Dutch East Indies.

Just watch the invasion of Iraq and the bombing of Baghdad. Did you support the bombing of civilians? I didn't.

Nice to know there were no women and children killed in these explosions. — FreeEmotion

Valid point.

another cartoon! What a surprise. — Benkei

I'm just telling you: you don't need to be ragging on other people's posts. Yours are mostly StreetlightX-want-to-be trash.

Blame the Dutch then, they made the volcano erupt by pushing too far eastwards.

I am starting to wonder if I have sporadic memory loss in which I login here under the alias Frank :D