I don't see any distinction between "unconscious" and "non-conscious". — Harry Hindu
I don't see any distinction between "unconscious" and "non-conscious". — Harry Hindu
Let me see if I can show it to you, because it is significant. — unenlightened
Let me see if I can show it to you, because it is significant. When you look at the screen, various processes occur that interpret the scene, most of which happen automatically. There is, for example, an 'edge detection' process that identifies shapes that form letters; these are combined into words, and sentences and the significance is grasped. Most of this, most of the time is non-conscious automatic processing, rather like one's fingernails growing, such that one is aware of the screen 'speaking' and not much else - Unenlightened replies to Harry Hindu. — unenlightened
The model I have been thinking about lately is that "consciousness is one function among many equals". Most of what goes on in our brains is invisible to us. Not only is 'edge detection' invisible, but so are the detections of horizontal and vertical lines, shape, color and texture recognition, face recognition, phoneme identification, and so on. Proprioception is another of many always on, always background operations. I have zero knowledge of how my brain assembled the sequence of words in this paragraph, or coordinated finger movements with the flow of thought. — Bitter Crank
None of these things happen when we are unconscious. Edge detection never happens when we are asleep, or otherwise unconscious. — Harry Hindu
I think you both are confusing consciousness with intent. — Harry Hindu
The feeling of hunger isn't a desire. It's a casual disposition. I don't desire to feel hunger, I am hungry and as a consequence I desire to eat. Once I desire to eat, I intend to do things. That's why desires and beliefs are normative. — Marty
Well, I think your interlocutor here can just say something to the effect of the desire is equivalent to the will insofar as one has to choose to desire, instead of being casually disposed to hunger. — Marty
How do you figure this to not be a semantic dispute? — Marty
, I am hungry and as a consequence I desire to eat. Once I desire to eat, I intend to do things. That's why desires and beliefs are normative. — Marty
The common usage of the word is used ambiguously, MU. Surely you're not suggesting that the dictionary is the arbitrator of philosophical language? — Marty
I'm not sure where you are getting your information about what happens when we are unconscious either. The only place you could be getting it is from your consciousness! How is it that you know anything if you are never conscious? When have you learned anything while being non-conscious, or unconscious?I'm not sure where you are getting your certainty about what happens when we are unconscious. — unenlightened
It seems the other way around to me - that you aren't understanding me and it's obvious because you didn't reply to my whole post (cherry-picking). You keep talking about what appears in consciousness (edge-detection) and saying that it is an non-conscious process. When I'm conscious - and only when I'm conscious, do I detect edges. You can try to detect edges when you are asleep. Good Luck.But you are continuing to disagree with me about a distinction I have made without understanding it. Edge detection is non-conscious, I am saying, like a brick is non-conscious. 'We' may or may not be conscious of a brick from time to time, in the background or the foreground. Part of the process of seeing a brick is detecting its edges, but 'detecting the edges' does not itself see anything, nor does the brick;I see the brick by amongst other things, detecting its edges. All of which, I don't think we disagree much about. — unenlightened
Again, how do you know that the unconscious is willful and aware? In what way? It can't be aware in the way that we are when we are conscious because that would defeat the purpose of consciousness. If the unconscious is active, willful, and aware, then what use is consciousness? Consciousness must solve problems that the unconsciousness can't or else it would have never evolved in the first place.But then I want to talk about the Freudian unconscious, which is not so-called because it is like the brick or the automatic process of edge-detection. On the contrary, it is active, wilful, aware. But it is called the unconscious because the 'I' or 'we' that pontificates is unaware of its existence and active influence. This is the controversial bit.
So this is why Freud was interested in dreams, because when 'we' are unconscious, the unconscious is still awake and active. — unenlightened
But then why do I experience having control of certain aspects of my body. My legs don't start walking unless I will it. There is top-down processing happening, and it seems that there is also bottom-up processing going on as there are things that happen in consciousness that will did not precede in making it happen - like breathing. But consciousness is where I'm aware of this stuff happening. Could it be said that I could be aware of these things without being conscious? If so, how?As I said, the ego - the conscious mind - the 'I' that speaks, the 'I' we address in other people (unless we are trying to manipulate them by going around the 'I' altogether) is just one of those functions. We tend to think of it as the SUPREME function, but it isn't. It's just the Front Office. It's the Public Relations Department. The 'conscious mind' does not manage the brain, the mostly invisible brain manages the conscious mind. The conscious mind is often the last one to find out what it is going to do next, paradoxically. It's a paradox because we think the conscious mind is 'in charge'. It's not. — Bitter Crank
You keep talking about what appears in consciousness (edge-detection) and saying that it is an non-conscious process. When I'm conscious - and only when I'm conscious, do I detect edges. — Harry Hindu
Again, how do you know that the unconscious is willful and aware? In what way? — Harry Hindu
But then why do I experience having control of certain aspects of my body. — Harry Hindu
There is top-down processing happening, and it seems that there is also bottom-up processing going on as there are things that happen in consciousness that will did not precede in making it happen - like breathing. — Harry Hindu
But consciousness is where I'm aware of this stuff happening. Could it be said that I could be aware of these things without being conscious? If so, how? — Harry Hindu
the motor cortex is not conscious — Bitter Crank
I don't see how your example applies. In consciousness you are aware of the will to touch the nose, and the movement of your arm and hand towards your nose and the sensation of the two touching. In edge-detection I am conscious of the will to focus my attention on a certain area of my visual field, bringing it into focus, thereby clarifying the edges of the things before me. I've done these things countless times before and I can do them with very little effort. This was not the case when I was an infant. I had to learn how to focus my eyes and coordinate my arms and legs by observing them and how I focused my attention on them. So how did these abilities go from consciously learning how to do these things, to now having the ability to do them essentially without thinking about it?When I am conscious I detect edges. We agree about that much.
When I am conscious I can touch my nose with my thumb. I bet you can too. I do not, however think that my nose or my thumb is conscious, merely sensitive. Likewise, Ido not suppose that the visual process by which I detect edges in the visual field is itself conscious, merely sensitive to edge like variations in the visual field. That is all I am saying about edge detection. — unenlightened
But is it accurate to say that you are "aware" in your sleep. You aren't aware of anything going on outside of your body and you aren't even aware that you are dreaming. Dreams could just be hallucinations as we know that sensory deprivation for an extended period can cause hallucinations. Or, it could be similar to day-dreaming (or letting our imagination run away), but without the being aware of the rest of the world, which can make the dream more convincing and explains why we don't know that we are dreaming - like we do when we are awake.In the first instance, I am talking about what Freud meant by the unconscious, and that is why I have been at some pains to point out that the unconscious of Freudian is not the same thing as all the stuff that happens automatically, learned or innate. But many people think Freud was talking crap, so to them I would say the following.
Well I know that when I am asleep I am unconscious. And I also know that when I am asleep I have experiences, which I call dreams, in which I experience being active, having feelings and so on. It seems to follow that there is some form of awareness in me while I am unconscious. There are other indications too, but leave it at that for now. — unenlightened
But that's the thing. I obviously do know how to send a series of coordinated nerve impulses to various muscles in my body so that I can walk. This is especially true if the "I" extends beyond my conscious mind. Consciousness, after all, is a model of my body's interactions with the world. What I experience is a representation of me sending a series of coordinated nerve impulses to various muscles in my body so that I can walk, which is my will to do so and the conscious knowledge that I am walking.Because "you" are in control of your arms and your legs. It's just that "you" extend beyond the function of your conscious mind. Besides, your conscious mind doesn't actually do much in the way of controlling motor functions. Do you know how to send a series of coordinated nerve impulses to the various muscles of your body so that you can walk? No, you don't. I don't either. Walking is controlled by your motor cortex (it's on the top side of your brain) and the motor cortex is not conscious. — Bitter Crank
Yes, but I can focus on each breath I take and and change the rate of my breathing. The same for my blinking and heart-rate. I could do the same with walking to my mailbox. I could focus my attention on each step and the movements I am making. But I don't do this normally because it is boring. I'd rather think about what might be in the mailbox or the reason I'm changing my rate of the other processes that are normally involuntary. How is it that these changes wouldn't normally happen if I weren't conscious? Consciousness must have some kind of control over other functions that we don't normally think of.Breathing, blinking, heart beat, etc. are controlled in the brain stem--one of the most 'ancient' structures of the brain. There are small clusters of cells that keep your heart ticking away, that make sure you keep breathing--until one fine day they don't, and then you're dead. There is also a small cluster of cells in the brain stem that send you into the oblivion of sleep and another cluster of cells that wake you up. When people have strokes that wreck this wakefulness center, they don't wake up. — Bitter Crank
Is it accurate to say that these things are aware though? Doesn't that require a priori knowledge that some bit of information represents something else - that the electrical signal means something other than just being an electrical signal of a certain strength and duration? After all, awareness is always of something. It doesn't make sense to say that something is just aware.Let me clarify: The motor cortex, which operates the motion of the body, is fully aware of what your body is doing--otherwise it couldn't successfully move you around. The cortex is 'conscious' of proprioception, for instance. It has to be aware of that in order to keep you upright while you are walking.
The visual cortex in the rear of your brain is aware of the impulses coming from the retina. It processes those signals, and puts together a cohesive picture of the world--for your conscious mind, among other parts, to enjoy and make use of.
There are various parts of the brain that are aware of what they are doing, but your conscious mind isn't aware of them, most of the time. The enteric nervous system operates the digestive track--a very complicated batch of processes that your central nervous system is mostly (and happily) unaware of. You don't want regular dispatches from the bowels about what is going on there. When you do hear from the gut, it's usually bad news--like something is going to be expelled in the very near future whether it is convenient for you, or not.
So, various parts of your brain are aware and interacting in ways that your conscious mind is not a part of. That's a very good thing, because if your conscious mind were aware of all that stuff, you would have no time left to think. — Bitter Crank
But is it accurate to say that you are "aware" in your sleep. You aren't aware of anything going on outside of your body and you aren't even aware that you are dreaming. Dreams could just be hallucinations as we know that sensory deprivation for an extended period can cause hallucinations. Or, it could be similar to day-dreaming (or letting our imagination run away), but without the being aware of the rest of the world, which can make the dream more convincing and explains why we don't know that we are dreaming - like we do when we are awake. — Harry Hindu
You are only aware of this after the fact — Harry Hindu
It also stands that at one point in my early life, I couldn't walk. Are you saying that "I" learned how to walk, or my motor cortex did? — Harry Hindu
Yes, but I can focus on each breath I take and and change the rate of my breathing. — Harry Hindu
What I experience is a representation of me sending a series of coordinated nerve impulses to various muscles in my body so that I can walk, which is my will to do so and the conscious knowledge that I am walking. — Harry Hindu
I don't buy into an "ID" as being the "base-level" of our self, as if there's some sort of primordial urge (ID) that implicitly supervenes over our conscience (Super-Ego), and then the conscience supervenes explicitly through sheer act of will-power. The triadic theory seems to put ethics as something over and above the passions, and seems to put practical engagement (Ego) over and above the passions/"bodily needs" (ID). They just seem to me to be equiprimordial. — Marty
It seems that it is you that is "making shit up". If not, then please explain how the sentence, "If I hallucinate pink elephants in the garden, then I am aware of pink elephants in the garden even if they are not there." makes any sense. How is it that you can be aware of something that isn't there? That, by definition, is what is called, "making shit up".How can you be aware after the fact without having been aware of the fact? Stop making shit up. If I hallucinate pink elephants in the garden, then I am aware of pink elephants in the garden even if they are not there. How the hell can I hallucinate pink elephants without being aware of anything? I hallucinate pink elephants, therefore I am. — unenlightened
I don't see how this answers my question.It also stands that at one point in my early life, I couldn't walk. Are you saying that "I" learned how to walk, or my motor cortex did? — Harry Hindu
Learning how to walk when you were transitioning from crawling around on the floor to standing up to taking steps was DIFFICULT. If you had to learn how to walk as an adult (as happens to people who have had brain injuries) it would be VERY DIFFICULT. — Bitter Crank
This also doesn't answer my question. 0 for two?Yes, but I can focus on each breath I take and and change the rate of my breathing. — Harry Hindu
That's a major hunk of yoga, right there. The reason why consciously controlled breathing is psychologically significant is that the conscious part of your brain normally doesn't deal with breathing. When you are thinking about controlling your breathing you have to stop thinking about your 401K, or whatever... — Bitter Crank
If my consciousness constructs that representation, then the construction of consciousness would be in consciousness. Does that make any sense to you? It makes more sense to say that that the part of your brain that coordinates movements is the conscious mind, as I wouldn't be walking if I wasn't conscious. The sensation you feel and the experiences of control that you have actually are you controlling your body and it's movements. To say that you don't know how, but your motor cortex does, doesn't make any sense, especially if your definition of "I" or "me" includes what extends beyond my conscious mind - an inconsistency that I pointed out and that you failed to address in your last postYes, your consciousness constructs that representation. But that representation and 50¢ won't get you a cup of coffee. The part of your brain that actually coordinates movement isn't accessible to the conscious mind, but (apparently) the motor cortex has access to the conscious mind--else it wouldn't know where you wanted to go. — Bitter Crank
It seems that it is you that is "making shit up". If not, then please explain how the sentence, "If I hallucinate pink elephants in the garden, then I am aware of pink elephants in the garden even if they are not there." makes any sense. How is it that you can be aware of something that isn't there? That, by definition, is what is called, "making shit up". — Harry Hindu
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