Yep. So many ways this could have been avoided, all the way from Russian appeasement one one side of the spectrum to bulwarking Ukraine on the other. It's hard to see anything other than malfeasance. Even with gross incompetence you'd expect some of their actions to have gone in Ukraine's favour. — Isaac
but if it turns out that's what the Russians mean then I don't see how that changes things. — Isaac
What little measures there are of such things indicate the average Ukrainian will be no worse off in a Russian puppet state than they are currently — Isaac
so why anyone would cheer on the idea of continuing a bloody war just in the vain hope of avoiding such an outcome is beyond me. — Isaac
On the other shore, Biden conducts a nonstop seance with Dean Acheson and all the ghosts of Cold Wars past. The White House is visionless in the wilderness it helped to create. All the think tanks and genius minds that supposedly guide the Clinton-Obama wing of the Democratic Party are in their own way as lizard-brained as the soothsayers in the Kremlin. They can’t imagine any other intellectual framework for declining American power than nuclear-tipped competition with Russia and China. (One could almost hear the sigh of relief as Putin lifted the mental burden of having to think global strategy in the Anthropocene). In the end, Biden has turned out to be the same warmonger in power that we feared Hilary Clinton would be. Although Eastern Europe now distracts, who can doubt Biden’s determination to seek confrontation in the South China Sea – waters far more dangerous than the Black Sea?
Meanwhile the White House seems to have almost casually chucked its weak commitment to progressivism into the trash. A week after the most frightening report in history, one that implied the coming decimation of poor humanity, climate change rated nary a mention in the State of the Union. (How could it compare to the transcendental urgency of rebuilding NATO?) And Trayvon Martin and George Floyd are now just roadkill rapidly vanishing from sight in the rear-view mirror of the presidential limousine as Biden rushes around reassuring the cops that he’s their best friend.
...We are living through the nightmare edition of ‘Great Men Make History’. Unlike the high Cold War when politburos, parliaments, presidential cabinets and general staffs to some extent countervailed megalomania at the top, there are few safety switches between today’s maximum leaders and Armageddon. Never has so much fused economic, mediatic and military power been put into so few hands. It should make us pay homage at the hero graves of Aleksandr Ilyich Ulyanov, Alexander Berkman and the incomparable Sholem Schwarzbard.
Yes it is puzzling like an accident waiting to happen and someone waiting for that accident to happen. — FreeEmotion
Armchair geopoliticians and wannabe generals tend to overestimate their own capacity to predict the future and see things coming. — Olivier5
The Russians obviously can't win this one. They are being bled to death, their army is humiliated, and the country is soon going to be bankrupt. — Olivier5
By taking a bite out of Ukraine one bit at a time. — Christoffer
Relocate yourself into an authoritarian regime, is that something you would like to do? — Christoffer
And how about Russia then falling back, gathering strength, and invading again at a later date, how do we know Putin won't do that? — Christoffer
What little measures there are of such things indicate the average Ukrainian will be no worse off in a Russian puppet state than they are currently — Isaac
How can you even confirm that? And do those Ukrainians not have a say in this? — Christoffer
No one is cheering anything. You seem to use that argument all the time when someone stands on the side of Ukrainians fighting for their right to independence and freedom from Russia. — Christoffer
And if civilians are getting killed, that's pure brutal terrorism from Russia — Christoffer
The only thing that helps is to have no positive outcome for Russia — Christoffer
You guys think Russia will have no economic problem? Really? — Olivier5
What evidence have you that they'd do this and is it sufficient to justify continued bloodshed? — Isaac
I provided the latest indices of corruption. Russia scores marginally higher than Ukraine. Democracy isn't the be all and end all of human flourishing. Freedom from Russian puppet-mastery doesn't mean freedom from all forms of authoritarianism. — Isaac
We don't. Shall we sacrifice an entire generation of young men on the off-chance? — Isaac
It has nothing to do with average Ukrainians' wishes at this stage, there will be no referenda no election manifestos, this is about what the current sitting Ukrainian authorities should do based in the information they currently have. Continued war in the vain hope of winning, or give those regions independence and risk them coming under Russian influence. That's the choice. — Isaac
Yep. Is it the word 'cheering' you take offense to. I might have said 'supporting'. Equally unjustified. The average Ukrainian is fucked either way. Yoke of Russian authority, yoke of Western financial indebtedness. The difference is that one way doesn't have half of them die first. — Isaac
No, it's as much Ukrainian decisions to arm civilians — Isaac
Funny how when Israel kills civilian Palestinians its all a complex issue muddied by the blurred line between resistance fighter and civilian in Palestine — Isaac
Where's the call for sanctions against Israel? — Isaac
So you were just pretending to disagree with me about that. Ok. — Olivier5
Because this is what they've done since 2014. — Christoffer
Would you give up your home and your life as you know it to bend down to authoritarian control? — Christoffer
Do you actually call Ukraine authoritarian compared to what Russia is today? — Christoffer
You mean that the Ukrainian authorities shouldn't do what the people want? — Christoffer
listen to what they are actually saying — Christoffer
what we support is standing up against an aggressor taking freedom and independence away from a people who just want to be their own nation. — Christoffer
if the west listens to what Ukrainians want to do and supports their choices and backs them up on their choices, how is that bad? — Christoffer
So all the Ukrainian civilians who want to fight for their nation, even those flying home from all over the world just to fight for their nation, that's the Ukrainian authorities' fault? — Christoffer
To protect civilians, combatants – and anyone directly participating in hostilities – must distinguish themselves from civilians in all military operations by wearing identifiable insignia and carrying arms openly.
Parties to an armed conflict must "at all times distinguish between the civilian population and combatants and between civilian objects and military objectives and accordingly shall direct their operations only against military objectives".
Do you know how genocidal the war in Checnya was? — ssu
The narrative that this is bad for Russia because the Western media doesn't like Putin even more than before, may not be a true narrative and things far more complex than they seem. Yes, the western media disapproves, but, no, Putin can't be cancelled like some "toxic" male executive trying to host Jeopardy . — boethius
Well Putin expressly talked about antisemitism too in denouncing the Ukrainian government. — neomac
The narrative that this is bad for Russia because the Western media doesn't like Putin even more than before, may not be a true narrative — boethius
No, what they've done since 2014 is annex Crimea and assist separatist movements in Donetsk and Luhansk. The rest is speculation on intent. — Isaac
No — Isaac
measures of well being in Belarus are no worse than in Ukraine. Crimea recieved s huge boost in public infrastructure investment after 2014, and reports of satisfaction are at least mixed — Isaac
No, I said democracy is not the only measure of human flourishing. As I've shown there aren't any conclusive indicators that life for the average Ukrainian would be overall worse as a Russian protectorate than their current state. — Isaac
No, I mean the Ukrainian authorities will not and could not possibly assess what their people want because they lack both the time and the facility to carry out any sort of referendum or election. We are all assuming what they want because nobody can ask in any statistically robust way. A few vox pops on the street is not a mandate. — Isaac
From what source? Which source gives me robust data on what 'the Ukrainians' are saying? — Isaac
The question isn't one of support for the goal (which we all agree with), it's one of support for the method. — Isaac
One could say "if Putin just wants to protect pro-Russian groups in Donetsk, and if he can't see any other way than war, then he's doing the right thing, how's that bad?". We would dispute them over the 'if'. — Isaac
f they're encouraging it, yes. Arming civilians is fraught with legal problems in war, namely... — Isaac
To protect civilians, combatants – and anyone directly participating in hostilities – must distinguish themselves from civilians in all military operations by wearing identifiable insignia and carrying arms openly.
And...
Parties to an armed conflict must "at all times distinguish between the civilian population and combatants and between civilian objects and military objectives and accordingly shall direct their operations only against military objectives". — Isaac
But yes, let's spend 30 more pages discussing whether Putin's war propaganda has a grain of truth in it. That is obviously the most important question now. — SophistiCat
In both cases their defeat will be because of American support — frank
Moreover, we need to remember that no US presidents were cancelled for deliberately bombing civilians in Germany and Japan. A balanced debate needs to analyze things in the right perspective, not in isolation of everything else. — Apollodorus
President Volodymyr Zelensky said he is no longer pressing for NATO membership for Ukraine, a delicate issue that was one of Russia's stated reasons for invading its pro-Western neighbor.
In another apparent nod aimed at placating Moscow, Zelensky said he is open to "compromise" on the status of two breakaway pro-Russian territories that President Vladimir Putin recognized as independent just before unleashing the invasion on February 24.
And you define that as not being a bite into Ukraine? — Christoffer
No — Isaac
Should be enough as an answer. — Christoffer
How do you know that people won't self censor under the boot? — Christoffer
If Russia and Belarus keeps this up, they will fall on those indexes like the Rubel has done. — Christoffer
Sure, for everyone licking Putin's boot, everyone else will be silenced, including people under the power of Lukashenko. You think those voices will be included into the indexes? — Christoffer
The people speak for themselves, you can make conclusions based on listening to the collective voices from everyone. You don't have to do a referendum for any of this. Talk to the refuges, do they complain about Zelenskyy, do they complain about the fight? What do people say in Ukraine? — Christoffer
nothing to support anything you say about the people of Ukraine not supporting Zelenskyy — Christoffer
Turn on the news for once! Check social media accounts from Ukraine, listen to interviews etc. etc. etc. — Christoffer
Method? You mean defending against the aggressor? Your method is to kiss their boots and give up their freedom to the glory of Russia. — Christoffer
And they are willingly dying for their country and freedom. Are you calling the Ukrainians willing to defend their nation, stupid? That they can't think for themselves, that encouraging defense means luring them into situations they didn't choose for themselves? Are you calling them unable to decide for themselves? If so, when you talk about what the people want, you also mean they cannot decide that either? So Zelenskyy and his authorities can't assess what the people want because all it takes is a little encouragement and you have fooled the entire nation into defending the country and no single one of them can think for themselves? — Christoffer
It's the Ukrainian civilians' own choice to fight. No one is forcing them to fight as civilians and most civilians who choose to fight get equipment to do so. — Christoffer
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