Do you understand why they think the mereological fallacy is important? — Daemon
One does not unsee the mysterious figure. — Joshs
One has now constituted a different phenomenon, but idealizes the changes by dubbing this process of perceptual transformation as my seeing the ‘ same’ object correctly now but incorrectly before. — Joshs
As realists, our belief in persisting real objects makes our conformity to the ‘ facts’ of the real external thing the arbiter of correctness. But from a phenomenological vantage , the difference between illusion and correctness is a function of the inferential compatibility between one moment of perception and the next, which is relatively stable over time but never self -identical. — Joshs
I simply ask what specifically does Husserlian intentionality add here that we don't already know? — apokrisis
Perhaps, 'describing conscious experience'? — Wayfarer
Do we want to "describe" or do we want to model the causality?
And which do you think has the better hope of engaging with the causality? — apokrisis
And don't actual neuroscientists on the whole only claim to be studying brain function or cognition - as "consciousness" is such a vague term loaded with cultural baggage? — apokrisis
First off, I should say that science’s conception of itself, including such things as what it does, how it differs from philosophy and what an object is, has undergone and will continue to undergo change alongside historical changes in philosophical wordviews. — Joshs
Does objective realism simply take objects ‘as they are given’ , as you say? If that were the case , there would seem to be no need for Husserl’s famous dictum countering the Kantian unknowable noumena, ‘to the things themselves’.
Objective realism doesn’t take objects as they are perceived, it takes them as preconceived according to presuppositions about objects, such as that an object is identical with itself over a certain duration. You say that science makes no necessary assumptions about the independent existence of its objects, but it does indeed do this in that it requires that objects be mathematizable. — Joshs
You say that science makes no necessary assumptions about the independent existence of its objects, but it does indeed do this in that it requires that objects be mathematizable. — Joshs
basically science is a "third person" investigation. The various epistemological theories you cite are examples of philosophy of science, which is a kind of phenomenology, bot a kind of science. — Janus
"To the things themselves" is an injunction to examine the ways in which things are experienced by us; a different investigation altogether, where it is our experience of the objects, and not the objects themselves, that are in view. — Janus
I suggest eventually all scientists will abandon. such a notion of the third -personal
stance , just as many of them now have abandoned the myth of the given or the gods-eye view. — Joshs
One cannot get to phenomenology from naturalism if one begins from a concept of pre-relational intrinsicality and tries to add phenomenological intentionality on top of it. One has to instead open up Firstness and reveal it as a derived abstraction. — Joshs
since phenomenological description is not concerned with that. — Janus
Right, and that is precisely why I've been pointing out that neuroscience studies only brain function and has no substantive warrant to make dogmatic claims (as opposed to educated conjectures) about the origins of consciousness. — Janus
The sense of self is an example of consciousness. It seems to me that the sense of self cannot be epiphenomenal, since it most certainly has real world effects. You might say there is a neural correlate to the sense of self, but, as experienced, the sense of self is not a neural correlate. — Janus
My understanding of phenomenology is that it is concerned with describing and gaining a better understanding of the "as experienced". Science cannot do this because the " as experienced" is given subjectively. Is it so hard to understand that there are different kinds of investigations, each with their own methodologies, and each valid within their own ambits? — Janus
They may or may not abandon those ideas; but whether or not they do will have no impact on their ability to do science. As is said in the context of QM: "Shut up and calculate"; that is the methodology. We have practicing scientists who are Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, atheists, nihilists or whatever: no metaphysical belief or faith precludes them from doing science as well as the next person. — Janus
You are treating "as experienced" as if it were something pre-existing to be discovered by an inquiry. But an experiencing human mind is structured by language and culture. Those are the causes of its design. — apokrisis
an experiencing human mind is structured by language and culture — apokrisis
However there is an acknowledgement of 'the unconditioned' in the perennial philosophies. It's a subject of dispute whether this is ever a real object of experience. (I don't expect to solve that here.) — Wayfarer
The redness of red is only a problem because we get together in a little community of philosophers of mind and say, well what about Locke, Berkeley, Descartes and Kant? — apokrisis
And all the classic examples meant to motivate the Hard Problem - the lament about the unconditioned nature of primary experience - are the same. The redness of red is only a problem because we get together in a little community of philosophers of mind and say, well what about Locke, Berkeley, Descartes and Kant? How are we going to solve this riddle that there is something ineffable and fundamental about these qualia thingies? — apokrisis
Like philosophy , Science isn't one thing. — Joshs
like saying that whether one is a Kantian, Hegelian or phenomenologist will have no impact on one’s ability to do philosophy.’Shut up and philosophize!’ — Joshs
So you don't experience a sense of self. You can only experience a sense of the self as being "other" to the world. — apokrisis
I don't think you see the point. The point of the hard problem argument is simply that the first-person nature of being (or experience) can never be reduced to (or explained in terms of) a third-person description. It's an extremely simple point which nevertheless eludes the advocates of physicalist reductionism, who insist that 'there is a straightforward, conservative extension of objective science that handsomely covers the ground — all the ground — of human consciousness, doing justice to all the data without ever having to abandon the rules and constraints of the experimental method that have worked so well in the rest of science'. (Dennett)
No boggling required. — Wayfarer
The fundamental absurdity of materialism is that it starts from the objective, and takes as the ultimate ground of explanation something objective, whether it be matter in the abstract, simply as it is thought, or after it has taken form, is empirically given — that is to say, is substance, the chemical element with its primary relations. Some such thing it takes, as existing absolutely and in itself, in order that it may evolve organic nature and finally the knowing subject from it, and explain them adequately by means of it ; whereas in truth all that is objective is already determined as such in manifold ways by the knowing subject through its forms of knowing, and presupposes them; and consequently it entirely disappears if we think the subject away. Thus materialism is the attempt to explain what is immediately given us by what is given us indirectly.
All that is objective, extended, active— that is to say, all that is material — is regarded by materialism as affording so solid a basis for its explanation, that a reduction of everything to this can leave nothing to be desired (especially, if in ultimate analysis, this reduction should resolve itself into action and reaction). But we have shown that all this is given indirectly and in the highest degree determined, and is therefore merely a relatively present object, for it has passed through the machinery and manufactory of the brain, and has thus come under the forms of space, time and causality, by means of which it is first presented to us as extended in space and ever active in time. — Schop. WWI
And this is another way of deflating the Hard Problem. What is good for the givenness - the unconditionedness - of the experience of Mach bands is good for the experience of seeing red. — apokrisis
The mind is just as composite as the parts in the world. Left I hear sounds, I see my moving fingers, feel burning in my right eye, direct attention to my right foot, hear a voice outside, and smell the coffee in front of me. Right now music sounds. If I would put on headphones I even hear it inside my skull, a proof that it originates in my brain (outside sounds involve the body). — EugeneW
I still don't understand the unity they talk about. — EugeneW
Get involved in philosophical discussions about knowledge, truth, language, consciousness, science, politics, religion, logic and mathematics, art, history, and lots more. No ads, no clutter, and very little agreement — just fascinating conversations.