Zen & The Bible

Agent Smith

Zen koans are short stories, one liners, questions, etc. that are paradoxical in nature. A (famous) sample: What is the sound of one hand clapping? Koans are, in my view, logic bombs designed to go off inside your head and induce what in the West is known as analysis paralysis. The objective: mushin no shin (mind without mind).

The Bible, as per atheists and even theists, is chocablock with contradictions. Dan Barker, an atheist ex-priest, illustrates this by saying that the Bible, from the first page to the last, amounts to saying "married bachelor!"

Question: Is the Biblia Sacra one long frigging Zen koan?

baker

Question: Is the Biblia Sacra one long frigging Zen koan? — Agent Smith

If it would be advertised and classifiy itself as a logico-philosophical tractatus, then, perhaps.

But it is not and it does no such thing. It's a collection of witness testimonies, tribal histories, personal histories, didactic aphorisms, poetry, prophecies, mystic visions, ... Which makes it clear that its genre is definitely not that of a logico-philosophical tractatus and that it shouldn't be read as such.

Agent Smith

↪baker

Why shoulldn't the Biblia Sacra be considered a(n) (unsually long) Zen koan? If I were a Zen master ( :smile: ), I would tell my pupils/disciples/students to go read the Bible and get back to me once they've understood it ( :naughty: ). There's probably a Koan on every page of the Good book - some crude, others subtle, nevertheless paradoxes, paradoxes, and paradoxes.

baker

Why shoulldn't the Biblia Sacra be considered a(n) (unsually long) Zen koan? — Agent Smith

Because it is not advertised as one and it does not classifiy itself as a Zen koan.

Nor is it advertised or does is classify itself as a logico-philosophical tractatus. (If it did, then we would be justified to expect a rigid internal consistency from it, at the very minimum.)

Agent Smith

Because it is not advertised as one and it does not classifiy itself as a Zen koan.

Nor is it advertised or does is classify itself as a logico-philosophical tractatus. (If it did, then we would be justified to expect a rigid internal consistency from it, at the very minimum.) — baker

Not all companies advertize their products: 6 Top Brands that don't advertize (much) are still ridiculously famous

baker

↪Agent Smith

What does advertizing and fame have to do with the genre of a text?

Agent Smith

What does advertizing and fame have to do with the genre of a text? — baker

Well, you brought it up! Shouldn't you be the one telling me?

:chin:

Agent Smith

@baker

There were people (mostly Christian monks) who believed that Taoism (one arm of Zen that kickstarted the whole Koan aspect of Zen) is a Christian sect.

3 facets of the Tao

1. Yi: Subtle
2. Shi: Faint
3. Wei: Elusive

Yi-Shi-Wei: Yahweh

baker

↪Agent Smith

I'm talking about the genre of a text, and your apparent inability to recognize it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genre

Agent Smith

I'm talking about the genre of a text, and your apparent inability to recognize it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genre — baker

What do you mean genre? I thought we were discussing advertizement.

baker

↪Agent Smith

That's why Odin invented links!

Edited for missing word.

Agent Smith

That's Odin invented links! — baker

Sorry, I don't follow.

baker

Genre. Do read up on it. It should answer our OP question.

Agent Smith

Genre. Do read up on it. It should answer our OP question. — baker

I do agree that the Biblia Sacra isn't officially classified as a Zen tome, but there's no hard and fast rule that says books in one genre can't contain material on another subject.

Then there's the problem of not knowing - people who did the categorization may have been ignorant of a book's original intent/purpose.

Agent Smith

If a reasonably intelligent person like Dan Barker can reduce the Good Book to one phrase "married bachelor", it's obvious that the Bible is one big contradiction from cover to cover! Exactly the kind of treatise a Zen master/Taoist would like to get his hands on to mystify his/her students!

baker

I wonder what Barker thinks about cookbooks. Maybe he just barks about them.

Agent Smith

I wonder what Barker thinks about cookbooks. Maybe he just barks about them. — baker

He (Dan Barker) has in depth knowledge of the Bible. He was a priest for 2 decades if you must know. Don't dismiss his findings so flippantly.

baker

Don't dismiss his findings so flippantly. — Agent Smith

It's entirely in place to dismiss the remarks of someone who has presumably devoted decades of his life to something, but who then made a flippant remark to the effect of

he Bible, from the first page to the last, amounts to saying "married bachelor!" — Agent Smith

baker

Exactly the kind of treatise a Zen master/Taoist would like to get his hands on to mystify his/her students! — Agent Smith

Why mystify??

Agent Smith

Why mystify?? — baker

That, my friend, is the right question. — Dr. Lanning

Any ideas?

baker

↪Agent Smith

You used the word first.

Agent Smith

It's entirely in place to dismiss the remarks of someone who has presumably devoted decades of his life to something, but who then made a flippant remark to the effect of — baker

It's obvious that you aren't acquainted with Dan Barker's mission and work.

Agent Smith

You used the word first. — baker

Yep but I'd like to hear what you havta say.

baker

↪Agent Smith

One is fully capable of overcoming one's idle fascination with paradoxes and mysteries.

Agent Smith

One is fully capable of overcoming one's idle fascination with paradoxes and mysteries. — baker

So you think!

EugeneW

mushin no shin (mind without mind). — Agent Smith

This state can be achieved by meditation, so it seems. Shut off thinking and focus on the central red pearl. Thinking fades. Sounds and visions fade. The body fades. What remains is the red pearl of pure shin, the pure mind, without the extra bagage of the other hand. The flash without the smoking pistol...

Agent Smith

↪EugeneW

Yes, look at the red pearl. Is it red? Is it a pearl? Are you looking? What is looking? Go turn off the gas, you numskull!

EugeneW

↪Agent Smith

:lol:

Reality kicking in... Thoughts can't be prevented. Although... there seems to be a way. Concentrate on the red pearl. Thoughts might fade away, sound and vision conflate into an amorphous blob of black. The noise of gas subsides. The lighter isn't noticed. The bang of explosion will be your last. Gone in a blaze of thoughtless but mindful glory.

Agent Smith

Reality kicking in... Thoughts can't be prevented. Although... there seems to be a way. Concentrate on the red pearl. Thoughts might fade away, sound and vision conflate into an amorphous blob of black. The noise of gas subsides. The lighter isn't noticed. The bang of explosion will be your last. Gone in a blaze of thoughtless but mindful glory. — EugeneW

:lol: That's how a typical day at a Zen monastery must be like, eh?

EugeneW

That's how a typical day at a Zen monastery must be like, eh? — Agent Smith

Yes! That's why there are less and less monasteries. At the same time it could explain the mysterious sounds heard in the Himalayas once in a while...

Agent Smith

Yes! That's why there are less and less monasteries. At the same time it could explain the mysterious sounds heard in the Himalayas once in a while... — EugeneW

:sweat: What people are willing to do trying to solve the problem of death...suffering...which is it? Let's all build this monastery, wear robes, tonsure ourselves, mumble mantras, and confuse the hell out of each other.

Zen & The Bible

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