Putin clearly stated before the invasion that he was only conducting a 'special operation' to de-nazify the independent regions. — Isaac

Putin clearly stated before the invasion that he had no intension of invading Ukraine. Denazification I think was the term when the invasion had been launched.

Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov emerged from the nearly eight hours of talks and declared, "There are no plans or intentions to attack Ukraine." He went on to say, "There is no reason to fear some kind of escalatory scenario."

And when the US intel got it (the invasion) few days wrong, an active person on this thread posted:



And then continued:

So it turns out American and Western hysteria about entirely made-up threats have done more damage to Ukraine than the dreamed about Russians to the tune of a double-digit billions

Made up threats indeed.

Right. The error might have been to put the aspiration to membership in the constitution, perhaps hastingly. It's not technically what a constitution is for, more of a foreign policy option which ought to be open to debate and reviseable through policy change I think. Note how in your article, it is manifest that Zelensky cannot really say what he thinks about NATO, because the Ukrainian aspiration to membership is not up to him: it's in the constitution. That'd be why all the interviewed Ukrainians in the article keep saying: "it's in the constitution" like a mantra. Because they can't say anything else, otherwise they would be anti-constitutional....

Yes, they could have been a bit quieter about it, and not put it in the constitution. But whether that would have changed anything re. the war is impossible to tell.

Right. The error might have been to put the aspiration to membership in the constitution, perhaps hastingly. It's not technically what a constitution is for, more of a foreign policy option which ought to be open to debate and reviseable through policy change I think. Note how in your article, it is manifest that Zelensky cannot really say what he thinks about NATO, because the Ukrainian aspiration to membership is not up to him: it's in the constitution. That'd be why all the interviewed Ukrainians in the article keep saying: "it's in the constitution" like a mantra. Because they can't say anything else, otherwise they would be anti-constitutional.... — Olivier5

I don't know why it's in their constitution, maybe @ssu knows?

The Russian president can override the constitution. I don't know if Ukraine's is similar.

Trump seemed to think the US constitution is like that. It's not.

Person referring to Holy Scripture in the justification of the war he started — ssu

You need to be more precise. He didn't use the Bible as his justification for his actions in the Ukraine, nor did he argue that he is following God's orders or that he otherwise has divine justification. Unlike the way US presidents did.

The problem is they aren't actually in NATO ... and maybe should have negotiated actually getting into NATO before "flexing" about it. — boethius

Correct. The question is why they decided to "flex" about it. And the answer seems to be that they were encouraged, as well as armed and trained, by the US and UK.

So, it looks like it was all planned in advance by the West in order to draw Russia into a protracted war. Russia's mistake was to fail to realize this. But this isn't surprising given the levels of corruption even in the ranks of the Russian intelligence and military - which rather demonstrates that Putin is nothing like Stalin or Hitler.

The biggest losers in this are the Ukrainians who are getting killed and having their homes pulverized for no reason. What exactly did Zelensky think? That Israel was going to come and save Ukraine? I know he's a comedian, but how delusional can this guy be??? And is it really him, or the oligarchs and foreign powers behind him?

Incidentally, America's Iraq War left 100,000 Iraqis dead. And no one complained ....

Leaders using that kind of rhetoric aren't immediately signing peace agreements. Documents of enemy surrender perhaps.

Yet the war isn't going as earlier predicted. I think that now Russia will simply need few days to a week to rearrange the supplies and resources for a next push. Perhaps a cease-fire would be convenient?

At least the Ukrainians are optimistic:

Russian forces have only three further days of fuel, food and ammunition left to conduct the war after a breakdown in their supply chains, Ukrainian military commanders have alleged.

The claims of major shortages were described as “plausible” by western officials although they said they were unable to corroborate the analysis.

The report from the Ukrainian armed forces general command was said to be consistent with evidence that the Russian advance had stalled, and that they had reverted to using “indiscriminate and attritional” artillery attacks on civilians.

Incidentally, America's Iraq War left 100,000 Iraqis dead. And no one complained .... — Apollodorus

The whimsically selective memory of the Putin troll.

Fifteen years ago, on Feb. 15, 2003, somewhere between 6 million to 11 million people turned out in at least 650 cities around the world to protest the United States’ push to invade Iraq. It was the largest anti-war protest and remains the largest one-day global protest the world has ever seen.

I don't know why it's in their constitution, maybe ssu knows? — frank

He must know a lot more. I just checked and it was not decided under Zelensky's presidency. He became president on 20 May 2019 while the constitution of Ukraine was amended on 21 February 2019.

Before his election, I gather he was doing this:

I don't know why it's in their constitution, maybe ssu knows? — frank

Don't know well the Ukrainian constitution...

Before his election, I gather he was doing this: — Olivier5

Yep. Talk about a postmodern twist. Or Karma. Announcing his candidacy and having to insist, it's not a joke.



...And then becoming this wartime leader of a country in the largest war in Europe since WW2.

The whimsically selective memory of the Putin troll. — ssu

As I explained to you earlier, just because YOU are a troll it doesn't mean the rest of us must be trolls.

BTW, no sanctions were imposed on America. Unfortunately, without memory (or a brain) you couldn't possibly remember this even if you tried .... :rofl:

Steep learning curve...

Before his election, I gather he was doing this: — Olivier5

I think he's still doing it, I mean the sequel. Directed by NATO and produced by Hollywood as we speak.

Another interesting development is that Zelensky has nationalized Ukraine’s TV news and has banned opposition parties …

Zelensky nationalizes TV news and restricts opposition parties – The Week

The whimsically selective memory of the Putin troll. — ssu

Clearly, you don't actually know his stance on Putin.

This discourse is the same as the covid one: "He that is not ferociously with us is feruciously against us, end of story, those are the only two options."

It's this simplificationism that keep the fires going.

Fifteen years ago, on Feb. 15, 2003, somewhere between 6 million to 11 million people turned out in at least 650 cities around the world to protest the United States’ push to invade Iraq. It was the largest anti-war protest and remains the largest one-day global protest the world has ever seen.

And what came of those protests? Nothing.

The other week, Zelensky gave a pep talk and he winked. He winked.
This is what we've come down to. Presidents in war-torn countries winking to their people in support.

The other week, Zelensky gave a pep talk and he winked. He winked.
This is what we've come down to. Presidents in war-torn countries winking to their people in support. — baker

Hmm... I thought he'd been visiting hospitals or whatever, talking with UN/EU/US, making some efforts to talk with Putin, tweeting about a deepfake featuring him or something, ...

It's this simplificationism that keep the fires going. — baker

And the pro-NATO trolls.

We also need to consider that Zelensky has put Ukraine under marshal law, he has nationalized all TV news, and he has banned opposition parties. So, basically, he is running the country single-handedly, with the help of dodgy characters like Sergey Shefir, Kolomoisky, and the CIA.

And, yet, some are claiming that Putin is the "dictator" ....

By the way, do you think the fact that Zelensky is non-Slavic plays a role in the West's jihad on Russia and other Slavic nations?

By the way, do you think the fact that Zelensky is non-Slavic plays a role in the West's jihad on Russia and other Slavic nations? — Apollodorus

They always screw up their act in the end... :roll:

The whimsically selective memory of the Putin troll. — ssu

Yes, I guess I wasn't out protesting that with millions of others around the globe because Apollodorus would never just make random stuff up to support his blatant pro-Russian bias. :lol:

By the way, do you think the fact that Zelensky is non-Slavic plays a role in the West's jihad on Russia and other Slavic nations? — Apollodorus

Of course, I mean Ukraine invaded Russia, just as Georgia, Chechnya, and Afghanistan did. They're in on the jihad too! As much as I don't care for the pro-NATO bias, at least its proponents believe their story. I'm utterly sick of your stupid disingenuous trash posts though. Anyway, carrying on playing the fool, I suppose.

Of course, I mean Ukraine invaded Russia, just as Georgia, Chechnya, and Afghanistan did. — Baden

If that's what you mean, it's alright by me.

However, I said "the West's jihad on Russia", not "Ukraine's". And as far as I'm aware NATO was created by America "to keep Russia out of Europe".

According to NATO's official website:

Lord Hastings Lionel Ismay was NATO’s first Secretary General, a position he was initially reluctant to accept. By the end of his tenure however, Ismay had become the biggest advocate of the organisation he had famously said earlier on in his political career, was created to “keep the Soviet Union out, the Americans in, and the Germans down.”

Lord Ismay - NATO

This also seems to be the general consensus, though perhaps not on some philosophy forums ....

Anyway, carrying on playing the fool, I suppose. — Baden

Well, you are doing a good job, so I wouldn't worry too much if I were you. :wink:

However, I said "the West's jihad on Russia", not "Ukraine's". And as far as I'm aware NATO was created by America "to keep Russia out of Europe". — Apollodorus

No, you said the West's Jihad on Russia and "other Slavic nations", implying it was of racist intent by suggesting Zelensky being non-Slavic played a part, showing you don't even know what Slavic nations are (and suggesting possible anti-semitism on your part seeing as he's Jewish).

By the way, do you think the fact that Zelensky is non-Slavic plays a role in the West's jihad on Russia and other Slavic nations? — Apollodorus

Here's some education for you:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavs

"Slavs are the largest ethnolinguistic group in Europe. Present-day Slavic people are classified into East Slavs (chiefly Belarusians, Russians, Rusyns, and Ukrainians), West Slavs (chiefly Czechs, Kashubs, Poles, Slovaks, and Sorbs) and South Slavs (chiefly Bosniaks, Bulgarians, Croats, Macedonians, Montenegrins, Serbs and Slovenes)."

Tell us more about the West's racist "Jihad" against Poland, Czechoslavakia, Bulgaria and Croatia. :lol:

Or just stop being a complete idiot.

Russia's propaganda-stated intentions of rescuing Ukrainians took a really big hit today

:100:

Or just stop being a complete idiot. — Baden

Idiots cannot do that. :smile:

Tell us more about the West's racist "Jihad" against Poland, Czechoslavakia, Bulgaria and Croatia. — Baden

I think there is an "Anglo-Saxon", i.e., Anglo-American jihad against other nations. NATO is basically an Anglo-American operation and a product of Anglo-American Atlanticism:

Atlanticism manifested itself most strongly during the Second World War and in its aftermath, the Cold War, through the establishment of various Euro-Atlantic institutions, most importantly NATO and the Marshall Plan.

the North Atlantic Treaty is a product of the US' desire to avoid overextension at the end of World War II, and consequently pursue multilateralism in Europe. It is part of the US' collective defense arrangement with Western European powers
Established in the aftermath of World War II, NATO implements the North Atlantic Treaty

Atlanticism - Wikipedia

IMO "Keeping the Americans in, the Russian out, and the Germans down" is a racist proposition.

I don't see NATO waging war on Canada, Australia, New Zealand, or Britain. Aren't Germans called "Huns", "Jerries", and "Krauts"???

List of terms used for Germans - Wikipedia

Or just stop being a complete idiot. — Baden

Sure. How about you posting comments for us and we just sit and watch? :rofl:

I will say that the quips about Zelensky being an ex-comedian somehow a bad thing is dumb and classist. I want more comedians, baristas, garbage people, dance teachers and brick layers in positions of power, as a general rule. If anything Zelensky's sense for the dramatic has been an absolute boon to Ukraine in this war, even if people are really so thick as to take it at sheer face value. But that's not Zelensky's fault.

↪boethius Yes, they could have been a bit quieter about it, and not put it in the constitution. But whether that would have changed anything re. the war is impossible to tell. — Olivier5

It was out of place. Maybe it was unconstitutional to put it in the constitution in the first place. In any case, it makes negotiations more difficult.

And what came of those protests? Nothing. — baker

Captive audience.

Definition of captive audience
: a person or people who are unable to leave a place and are thus forced to listen to what is being said
The passengers on the plane were a captive audience.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/captive%20audience


How about 'captive nations'?

Did you know there is a captive nations week?

The Congress, by joint resolution approved July 17, 1959 (73 Stat. 212), has authorized and requested the President to issue a proclamation designating the third week of July of each year as “Captive Nations Week.”

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/presidential-actions/2021/07/16/a-proclamation-on-captive-nations-week-2021/


Or maybe a 'captive democracy'?

Nothing new: the search engine comes up with this.

CHAINS TIGHTEN ABOUT A CAPTIVE DEMOCRACY; Czecho-Slovakia Must Obey the Nazis' Will

https://www.nytimes.com/1939/02/26/archives/chains-tighten-about-a-captive-democracy-czechoslovakia-must-obey.html

I will say that the quips about Zelensky being an ex-comedian is somehow a bad thing is dumb and classist. I want more comedians, baristas, garbage people, dance teachers and brick layers in positions of power. — StreetlightX

He was not elected for comedy, but because of the personality and promises. It's all about did they keep their promises. He failed to do so. Whose fault is that?

How is this for a headline?

Politician Fails to Keep Promises and Precipitates a Major War.

(Not a real headline, I made it up)

By then, Zelenskyy had drawn heavy criticism for his uneven response to the Covid-19 pandemic; an inability to end the seven-year conflict fueled by pro-Russian separatists in eastern Ukraine; and his Servant of the People-like habit of placing trusted friends in government roles. In November 2021, a major poll found that just 28 percent of Ukrainians approved of their president's performance — Biography

https://www.biography.com/political-figure/volodymyr-zelenskyy

Zelenskyy has also been criticized for not delivering on his biggest campaign promise — to end the long-simmering war between government forces and the Moscow-backed separatists in Ukraine’s east. The conflict that has left 14,000 dead became a flashpoint last week after Russia officially recognized the breakaway territories, Donetsk People’s Republic and Luhansk People’s Republic. The move paved the way for the invasion days later. — CNBC

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/02/27/3-years-ago-zelenskyy-was-a-tv-comedian-now-hes-standing-up-to-putins-army.html

By the way I am against funding armed separatists in another country. Peaceful means or nothing.
It was very upsetting to know that President Carter made the decision to fund Afghan rebels. "Morally wrong" I would think.

Clearly, you don't actually know his stance on Putin. — baker

Clearly I do.

I've discussed him issues far enough. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it is a duck.

Why don't you just look at what he says:

As regards Putin’s alleged intention to rebuild the borders of the Russian Empire, (a) I see no evidence to support that claim and (b) as already explained, Ukraine has always been part of Russia, both Ukraine and Russia having been part of the same territory called Russia or “Land of the Rus(sians)” (роусьскаѧ землѧ, rusĭskaę zemlę), a.k.a. “Kievan Rus”.

The fact is that Ukraine became separated from Russia only after being invaded and occupied by foreign powers (Mongols, Lithuanians, Poles). It follows that Putin has a point and his views need to be taken into consideration even if we disagree with his actions. — Apollodorus

When Putin said that Russia had no intention to invade, he was being truthful. — Apollodorus

Yes. IMO the best solution would be for Ukraine to be divided fairly between the two sister nations.

Russia should take everything east of the Dnieper, and maybe half of Kiev, and Zelensky (or Kolomoisky) can keep the rest. — Apollodorus

Russia has never had anything like a Western-style liberal democracy, which means that Putin cannot be described as “dictator” in a Russian context.

Plus, Russia does have a parliament, Putin’s approval ratings went up after the annexation of Crimea and he’s still got the backing of the majority of voters. There is some opposition, but there are many who are 100% behind him on Ukraine. — Apollodorus

When Putin said "Ukraine is not just a neighboring country for us. It is an inalienable part of our own history, culture and spiritual space,” he was stating a fact. — Apollodorus

So there you hear from the troll. Starting from that Putin cannot be a dictator. Putin has a point in many things, according to him. And he tells what Putin has told very accurately. Only saying that what Putin says are facts. And when you never, ever utter anything negative or critical about someone, it tells who you are.