It's a mathematical operation, actually a pure logic game. — Agent Smith

But how would you program that thought, a clear and sound mental happening, on a computer?

But how would you program that thought, a clear and sound mental happening, on a computer? — EugeneW

The thought is 1+1 = 3. Is there anything more to 1 + 1 = 3 than 1 + 1 = 3? Can you tell me what it is?

What's individuation? Do any AI researchers use this concept to prove that their work towards creating General AI is misguided, finished before it even begins? — Agent Smith

Wikipedia: Philosophically, "individuation" expresses the general idea of how a thing is identified as an individual thing that "is not something else". This includes how an individual person is held to be different from other elements in the world and how a person is distinct from other persons.

I think my earlier message made it quite clear what I mean by "individuation". It's about there being an entity, initially a single cell, much later us. And my central point is that this individuation is a prerequisite for consciousness, and for personhood.

Wikipedia: Artificial general intelligence (AGI) is the hypothetical ability of an intelligent agent to understand or learn any intellectual task that a human being can. It is a primary goal of some artificial intelligence research and a common topic in science fiction and futures studies. AGI can also be referred to as strong AI,full AI,or general intelligent action (although some academic sources reserve the term "strong AI" for computer programs that experience sentience or consciousness.)

What did you mean by "General AI"?

You're begging the question and also evading mine.

Which question am I evading?

Let's start over.

For an AI, the locus for the mind is the CPU.

Do you know other minds exist?

No let's not start over: what question am I evading?

No let's not start over: what question am I evading? — Daemon

Never mind, no offense. Please do your own homework. :smile:

Hint: Individuation, AI research.

What's individuation? Do any AI researchers use this concept to prove that their work towards creating General AI is misguided, finished before it even begins? — Agent Smith

To be honest I thought of saying this question doesn't make sense, but I decided to establish what you mean by General AI, in order to make some progress.

Do AI researchers use the concept of individuation to prove that their work is misguided? What kind of answer are you looking for?

What do you mean by General AI?

The question should've made sense. Your dodging skills are excellent!

The question should've made sense. — Agent Smith

But it doesn't mon ami. How do I know what AI researchers do? How could they use the concept of individuation to prove that their work is misguided? If they had, I suppose they would have stopped their work, but then does that mean all AI researchers? Maybe some of them have realised their work is pointless and moved on, maybe some just don't like to think about it. You don't seem to like to think about it.

What do you mean by General AI? You've seen the two options above, in the Wikipedia definition. Which do you have in mind, as a goal of AI?

But it doesn't mon ami. — Daemon

But it does, mon chéri!

Ok, explain what I'm supposed to get out of it.

Do AI researchers use the concept of individuation to prove that their work is misguided?

Yes. Then what?

No. Then what?

It's clearly not of any real interest to you. Look at the time...tempus fugit!

People like this also overestimate the significance of the Turing Test. Passing the test doesn't confer personhood. — Daemon

Agreed, but a program that can pass the Turing Test and is begging not to be deactivated because it's conscious should certainly give people food for thought.

Do you think machines can ever be conscious?

I don't think a computer can be conscious by means of digital computation.

:broken:

begging not to be deactivated — RogueAI

:chin:

Does any person beg to be...deactivated?

What about a mechanical functional equivalent to a working brain?

What would have to be added to digital computation for a computer to be conscious?

What would have to be added to digital computation for a computer to be conscious? — RogueAI

:up:

I don't think digital computation has any relation to the biological machinery of consciousness. It's a (recent) product of consciousness, not a cause.

The mechanisms in the brain involve such things as the biochemical reactions at synapses, which are significantly affected by slower-acting neuromodulatory molecules.

The mechanisms in a computer involve such things as transistors, resistors, LEDs, fans, electrical current, copper wires and cables. Really nothing to do with what happens in the brain.

To make a mechanical functional equivalent to a working brain you would need to replicate whatever it is about the neural activity and so on that sets consciousness in motion. We don't know exactly what that is yet. A book I'm reading plausibly suggests it may happen in the upper brain stem rather than in cerebral cortex. The upper brain stem is found in much more primitive organisms and is associated with basic emotions like pleasure and displeasure.

So if you did make a mechanical functional equivalent to a working brain, you could be making something that could feel pleasure and pain. Would we really want to do that? You could be making a being that felt nothing but agony.

book I'm reading plausibly suggests it may happen in the upper brain stem rather than in cerebral cortex — Daemon

Consciousness happens in the whole organism.

Agreed, but a program that can pass the Turing Test and is begging not to be deactivated because it's conscious should certainly give people food for thought. — RogueAI

I would deactivate it immediately. The difference with consciousness is that you can't turn it on and off. A computer can be turned off. The processes in the brain are not programmed, they live in a body, which moves in the world. A computer is just temporally local stuff. Consciousness, of every creature, contains the history of the whole universe.

Consciousness happens in the whole organism. — EugeneW

The whole organism is not a necessary condition for consciousness. You can remove quite a bit of an organism before it loses consciousness.

The whole organism is not a necessary condition for consciousness. You can remove quite a bit of an organism before it loses consciousness. — RogueAI

Yes, but at the cost of consciousness quality.

I mean, what can we remove? The brain cant live without a body.

Consciousness happens in the whole organism. — EugeneW

Maybe so, but specific regions of the brain are dedicated to specific aspects of consciousness. Mark Solms points to a large amount of evidence, from surgery, animal studies, injuries, disease and interviews with his neurological patients to argue that the brain stem and the feelings it deals with are where consciousness started and starts.

There are many unconscious bodily processes, does consciousness happen in them?

So if you did make a mechanical functional equivalent to a working brain, you could be making something that could feel pleasure and pain. Would we really want to do that? You could be making a being that felt nothing but agony — Daemon

I agree.

The very structure and shape of neurons, like lighting flashes and roots, is a pre. You can't copy that.

Consciousness, of every creature, contains the history of the whole universe. — EugeneW

That sounds mad. What do you mean?

There are many unconscious bodily processes, does consciousness happen in them? — Daemon

They sustain the workings of the brain. If I have pain in my foot, it's the combination of body and brain that creates the pain. The body can't function without the physical world we live in. So the world is involved also.