What you are implying is that Russia must subordinate itself to a world economic system dictated by the West and, in particular, by America. — Apollodorus

There might have been other, alternative models they could have adopted, but a corrupt authoritarianism is not a valid alternative. I think the world badly needs alternatives to liberal democracy and the modern Western political order, but there's no way Russia can be looked to for them. As I said, if they could out-compete the West in the 'marketplace of ideas', then they can expect to lead, but not this way.

gunboat diplomacy... — Apollodorus

Who is doing the bombing here?

I've said all I'm going to say. I posted to this thread to register my outrage at what is being done to Ukraine, and I'm done with it.

Who is doing the bombing, here? — Wayfarer

Who is freezing Russia's foreign reserves, confiscating Russian assets, disconnecting Russia from SWIFT, denying Russia access to credit, etc., etc.?

Is that what they did when China invaded and annexed Tibet? Or when Turkey invaded and occupied Cyprus? Or when Turkey invaded and occupied Kurdish territories in Syria and Iraq???!!!

I see what you're trying to say, but why the duplicity, hypocrisy, and the double standards?

But I agree that this thread is a waste of time and probably best suited for old-age pensioners and the unemployed. Oh, and NATO jihadi trolls .... :wink:

Is that what they did when China invaded and annexed Tibet? Or when Turkey invaded and occupied Cyprus? Or when Turkey invaded and occupied Kurdish territories in Syria and Iraq???!!! — Apollodorus

whataboutism
/ˌwɒtəˈbaʊtɪz(ə)m/
nounBRITISH
the technique or practice of responding to an accusation or difficult question by making a counter-accusation or raising a different issue.

Anyway, enough already. Let's hope something can bring this insanity to an end.

I posted to this thread to register my outrage at what is being done to Ukraine, and I'm done with it. — Wayfarer

Except this outrage - entirely valid - comes packed in an apologia and ideological flag-waving for Western power.

It surely points to a serious lack of organization within, which raises questions pertaining to strategy.

The only way would be if you would be sure that the other side will chicken out. — ssu

This thread has been a great learning experience for some I would think, steep learning curve and all that.

How about a nuclear agreement outlining how far each side would go before chickening out? Mutually Assured Commitment to Chickening out? The problem I have is I know how I would deal favor this as an adversary (mirror fallacy) but I do not know how President Putin or President Biden thinks, nor the forces behind them.

If several times the world has narrowly escaped being caught up in nuclear war, then is too dangerous to continue this sort of arrangement. President Reagan and Soviet General Secretary Mikhail Gorbachev had at some point total disarmament in mind, I have read.

Is there anything "morally wrong" about total disarmament? I am missing something here.

The Geneva Summit, the first meeting between U.S. President Ronald Reagan and Soviet General Secretary Mikhail Gorbachev, was held on November 19 and 20, 1985. The two leaders met to discuss the Cold War-era arms race, primarily the possibility of reducing the number of nuclear weapons. Hosted in Geneva, Switzerland, the meeting was the first American-Soviet summit in more than six years.

At Geneva, the two men quickly developed a rapport, even as they debated—sometimes quite ferociously—international issues of such grave importance. Gorbachev left a good impression on Reagan, who described the Soviet Secretary General as having “warmth in his face and style, not the coldness bordering on hatred I’d seen in most other senior Soviet leaders I’d met until then” (Gaddis 229).

It could be of course propaganda, but as a fiction, it is somewhat inspiring.

I do miss the 1980s.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxlFMSPdcR4

I've said all I'm going to say. I posted to this thread to register my outrage at what is being done to Ukraine, and I'm done with it. — Wayfarer

I welcome your outrage, but also be outraged at every innocent death caused in the name of wealth and national pride.

Also spare some outrage at those who are willing to vaporize thousands of children in their beds through a nuclear button.

Frankly I would like Biden to dump his nuclear suitcase in the Boston harbour and forget about it.
Something like it has happened before:

this outrage - entirely valid - comes packed in an apologia and ideological flag-waving for Western power. — StreetlightX

Which is entirely natural. Not everyone can be a political nihilist. So we often raise some flag or another, you included probably.

Not everyone can be a politically nihilist — Olivier5

Sorry that you lack the ability and imagination to engage with politics beyond sucking off state power.

What's your ideology?

Making people who obsess over labels functionally incapacitated.

You're quite confused, I would agree.

Please see PM I've sent you.

Ah, yes, your utter inability to put me into your preconceived boxes makes me confused.

I didn't ask for a label but for your ideology. You are welcome to describe it with or without labels.

You see, we all have some ideology. It's like metaphysics, even the hatred of metaphysics is a metaphysics, and likewise even the hatred of all political ideology is ideological.

For instance, your dislike of the West is ideological.

If I must, not cheering on a bunch of proven murderers and psychopaths is a baseline ideological position of mine. You are of course welcome to do otherwise.

I have been advised to take a break from all the acrimony in this thread.
But I'm sick of it all.
The worst offender (neither of you) jumps in without even taking a breath to attack those he perceives as an 'enemy'. Hostile doesn't even begin to cover it.
Even @jamalrob is keeping out of this thread, so toxic has it become.

I've asked for my account to be closed.
My 'resignation' refused for the time being.
Usually, I wouldn't make this public but I'm beyond caring.
Take care all.

Fair enough. Take care too.

PLEASE don't leave Amity. I love you. There are not too many folks I like here. If you go I might as well.

The toxicity is high here, on this particular thread, not everywhere. We all take a break from this specific thread once in a while to protect our sanity. That IS advisable. But please don't go.

not cheering on a bunch of proven murderers is a baseline ideological position of mine. — StreetlightX

You attribute a lot of importance to whom you cheer. It's an unusual way to look at politic, very youthful and teenage. People living in mature democracies are often more instrumentalist, they wouldn't cheer anyone but try and make choices, rather.

You're the one who equated not flag-waving with 'political nihilism'. You ought to be the target of your own advice.

What I call political nihilism is the incapacity to make any political choice. The incapacity to explain one's politics to another person would be a symptom.

incapacity to make any political choice. — Olivier5

Your stunted imagination about what counts as choice is not my problem.

Like, for instance, the incapacity to explain one's politics would be a symptom. — Olivier5

No I just don't think you're worth my time.

You are afraid to come forth transparently, as you should be.

If it makes you feel better.

Meh...

The big advantage of political nihilism is that one can criticize other ideologies but never ever present a positive belief or alternative onself, so as to avoid critique.

I owe you nothing and if you'd like to make this thread about me, maybe post me a letter.

If you critique someone's ideology without presenting any alternative, you're just making noise with your mouth.

If it makes you feel better.