To be quite frank?

yes.

If lines are crossed insults and violence can be a necessary deterrent whether or not we view it as an ideal place to arrive at. — I like sushi

Everything else I agree with, except this. I honestly don’t believe that ANY violence between humans as self-conscious beings is necessary. That doesn’t mean I haven’t resorted to the occasional insult or forceful hand myself - but I recognise (sometimes after the fact) that if I can’t interact without insult or violence, then there’s something about the relationship that is being ignored. Violence doesn’t solve that problem, only awareness.

Wars exist. No use pretending they do not.

Shahryar & Scheherazade (The Arabian Nights)

More like gynophobia than misogyny, but hey, it feels on point.

Wars exist. No use pretending they do not. — I like sushi

You haven't seen (real) war!

That doesn’t mean I haven’t resorted to the occasional insult or forceful hand myself — Possibility

:naughty:

Wars exist. No use pretending they do not. — I like sushi

I’m aware they exist - I’m saying they aren’t necessary.

Next you will claiming pain and suffering are not ‘necessary’ whatever that means? Nah! You just go ahead and make a word salad and leave me out of it thanks.

Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. You put yourself quite 'into it' as it were, just now.

More broadly speaking, it is a touchy topic. Easy to turn into a purposeless philosophical roundabout through ad hominem. If you want to talk about women as equals, allegedly, you will not use their physical attributes, of which they had no hand in creating or forming, as a form of identity.

In short, if you criticize a male when he is wrong, which though "being wrong" is subjective can become objective (or at least more so) when it can be measured and compared against real world statistics and professed rights and wrongs (morals) of the individual you are speaking to, one is not "out of line" by suggesting you can criticize a female equally.

Now, this is not to ignore the immoral acts that in my opinion have always amounted to mental illness (and now do so legally), ie. (abuse of women, slavery, violence in any form) that to this day impact certain demographics, simply that things are much better than they were before and such facts need be considered.

nice example of meaningless word salad.

How do you exist lol.

Like what do you do for a living? Legitimately curious.

That is one thing a machine could never offer I suppose. Entertainment. Morbid or not.

Men objectify women -> women resent this objectification -> women take revenge on men by frustrating the sexual desires of men -> men resent this frustration -> men take revenge on women by raping them, or raping surrogates via porn. — _db

This is absolutely insane. A woman choosing to not sleep with you is not an act of revenge; you just feel so because you are drowned in entitlement. This is the craziest shit I've heard in a long time. Entitled people always think someone is withholding something from them in specific with malicious intent just because they can't obtain that thing by organic, fair or natural means - then they think everyone must feel like they do.

Next you will claiming pain and suffering are not ‘necessary’ whatever that means? Nah! You just go ahead and make a word salad and leave me out of it thanks. — I like sushi

necessary: (of a concept, statement, etc.) inevitably resulting from the nature of things, so that the contrary is impossible.

Humans naturally have the collaborative capacity, at least, for sufficient awareness prior to any interaction to entertain the possibility of alternatives to war.

To be clear, I am not defending this dynamic. Dworkin seems to have felt similarly, as I pointed out earlier in this thread.

A woman choosing to not sleep with you is not an act of revenge; you just feel so because you are drowned in entitlement. — Cobra

I can see how my choice of words could give the impression that this is what I was trying to say. What I really should have said is that men will perceive (projection) women as intentionally trying to elicit sexual feelings just in order to frustrate them, so they gain some kind of power, or satisfy some sadistic desire to see men writhe in sexual frustration. Whether a woman is actually trying to do this is irrelevant to the dynamic - men will feel that women are doing this on purpose, to "hurt" them, or to "get back" at them in the perpetual battle of the sexes.

Men will grow to hate women's bodies for the power they hold over him. They will resent women for just being in their world. Hence why women sometimes feel the need to dress conservatively, in order to feel safe. Just as Brownmiller said, rape is a looming threat that men use on women.

This dynamic is probably in most cases confined entirely to within a man's mind, which is dominated by numerous anxieties and fears - castration being just one of them. I do think that sometimes personal choices of appearance can be deliberately political. If men hold most of the power, then a woman can use the male gaze against the gazer, if she chooses to. It is conceivable that some women do intentionally try to turn on men so they can gain some kind of leverage or power; they know how to play the game. But I don't think this what usually happens. The dynamic is usually a completely psychotic fantasy of men that has no basis in reality.

Dworkin seems to have felt similarly, as I pointed out earlier in this thread. — _db

Is this supposed to appeal to me because she's a woman and some feminist? Don't do that.

Drowkin was batshit crazy and most sane people do not care about her except men trying to prove some point, 99% of the time.

What I really should have said is that men will perceive (projection) women as intentionally trying to elicit sexual feelings just in order to frustrate them, — _db

No, they do not. Men get frustrated because they are sexually attracted to her. They then either pursue her and get rejected or belittle her because she ruins their idealized view of a woman he made up in his head. He gets pissed because he feels entitled to ownership of the woman he desires and her sexuality.

If not that, they get frustrated because they perceive themselves a certain way, and project it on to her, such as being below her, thus never taking the approach to begin with because she's too hot to handle and only has sex with the man she CHOOSES to, then get pissed at her because of their own issues, one being he thinks the likelihood of him being chosen by her is slim.

This is why deranged men that can't get women or sex promote sex socialism and taking women back to the kitchen, while sexually active happy men do not and support more liberal freedoms for women.

This post is just a bunch of it's a woman's fault because she has freedom of choice and that men want to rape or kill her and control her body, which is absolutely insane. You should be advocating for these men to get professional help and be better humans. There are men like this, but it's nowhere near a significant amount and when it is it is socialized into them usually by one deranged male.

Whether a woman is actually trying to do this is irrelevant to the dynamic — _db

No it is not. It is completely relevant because it demonstrates a small subset of sadistic men that desire to harm women physically and emotionally without reason that women should actively know the signs of and avoid. Especially since you are making the argument these men exist in tangible reality as a commonality and interact with women often.

And this is why Dworkin is batshit crazy, because she attempts to argue that all men are sadists and instills false insecurity and false fears into otherwise, healthy women.

Men will grow to hate women's bodies for the power they hold over him. They will resent women for just being in their world. Hence why women sometimes feel the need to dress conservatively, in order to feel safe. — _db

Yes, because they are not getting laid and feel entitled to women's bodies. Then they make up a false scenario that women are depriving them intentionally and that men are an oppressed class because sex socialism is not a thing.

Women do not dress conservatively to feel safe from men because they are men, they dress conservatively to avoid a specific small group of people that EXCLUSIVELY TARGET women to induce harm and/or unnecessary unwanted attention.

Just as Brownmiller said, rape is a looming threat that men use on women. — _db

Wtf! No it isn't. When it comes to violence and sexual abuse there is no significant difference between the genders,in that other men, boys and children are also targets, sometimes exclusively, by this very same subset of deranged entitled sadistic men. The rape in male prison is sky high, precisely because this subset of the same men target others to inflict harm through entitlement. These same "threats" also work on men and boys/children, the only difference is men are less proactive about it because again, more male holier than thou no one can touch me and the world owes me mentalities.

Brownmiller sounds like she is projecting her own neurosis on other women, which is why Dworkin is not regarded as any significant feminist figure outside of a laughing stock.

Is this supposed to appeal to me because she's a woman and some feminist? Don't do that.

Drowkin was batshit crazy and most sane people do not care about her except men trying to prove some point, 99% of the time. — Cobra

Dworkin was an important figure in the second-wave. Intercourse is a classic. I love her writing. That is why I mentioned her. I dunno why you think she was batshit, I think she was brilliant.

This post is just a bunch of it's a woman's fault because she has freedom of choice and that men want to rape or kill her and control her body, which is absolutely insane. — Cobra

I have not once said that any of this is women's fault. It is a male phenomenon that victimizes women.

Especially since you are making the argument these men exist in tangible reality as a commonality and interact with women often.

And this is why Dworkin is batshit crazy, because she attempts to argue that all men are sadists and instills false insecurity and false fears into otherwise, healthy women. — Cobra

If you have a reference to where Dworkin says this, I'd like to read it. Because AFAIK, while Dworkin was very hostile to male rapist ideology, she didn't just think "all men bad".

The percentage of men that graduate from sexual frustration into full-blown sexual assault and rape is of course much less than the percentage of men that merely feel resentment, but never have any intention of acting on it - though in certain circumstances (like in war), the social barriers preventing this can crumble, and what happens are atrocities that include violence against women, like the Rape of Nanking, or My Lai. Iris Chang said it well: the veneer of civilization is thin.

Yes, because they are not getting laid and feel entitled to women's bodies. Then they make up a false scenario that women are depriving them intentionally and that men are an oppressed class because sex socialism is not a thing. — Cobra

:up:

Women do not dress conservatively to feel safe from men because they are men, they dress conservatively to avoid a specific small group of people that EXCLUSIVELY TARGET women to induce harm and/or unnecessary unwanted attention. — Cobra

I just don't see this group as small; I see it as quite large and spread out. Some women might want to stick their heads in the sand and pretend that "other" men are like this, but not any of the men in their lives...but that's probably not true. Being a man might give me more opportunities to notice this, because a lot of times men won't talk about this stuff around women.

I think there is a facade that is kept up by a lot of men to try to convince women that they don't have sexual predatory thoughts and feelings; some are better at it than others. Conceptually sequestering this phenomenon to a small group of perverts is a neat way to avoid having to critically analyze the culture that promotes it. It redirects the blame to an invisible boogeyman.

When it comes to violence and sexual abuse there is no significant difference between the genders,in that other men, boys and children are also targets, sometimes exclusively, by this very same subset of deranged entitled sadistic men. The rape in male prison is sky high, precisely because this subset of the same men target others to inflict harm through entitlement. — Cobra

Actually, the dynamics of homosexual prison rape often mirror the dynamics of rape outside of prison. In situations in which women are not accessible, a portion of the male population are used as surrogates. Brownmiller has a lengthy chapter on this, which is very illuminating.

We can agree to disagree. I think most women suffer more from biological neurosis more often than not stemming from being of smaller stature. Yes, large scary men "scary me" but I can rationalize it's not because he wants to rape and kill me and take my womanhood, and even if he does, the likelihood of him doing that is slim. Your dad is more likely to rape you than some man at a grocery store.

I can say this as a woman because I spend ample amount of time around them, and most are neurotic. You underestimate what women are aware of and give a crap about. Women are aware that men thinking about ripping them a new asshole, and are aware of male sexuality and sexual nature, probably their own male partner, they just don't give a crap because there is no need to or no real threat.

Dressing conservatively makes no difference at all if you are an attractive woman. Women know this already and get approached by losers daily, especially if you are in a city area, this is nothing new. It just is irrational to give a crap about that in a civilized society. Most men are not potential rapists and lack the necessary characteristics to be one, just like "dangerous incels" are rare.

Even times of war, the whole US Army doesn't go on raping spree. It's still the same small subset of men, that still may increase in number, causing a large amount of damage. For every woman that's killed, some man just died by the bullet of another man.

I don't see your point making this some big thing, the only takeaway from your post is that men are inherently crazy and women are just collateral damage.