• SwampMan
    9
    The teleological argument (specifically the one I posted about recently from Robin Collins) relies on a premise that he calls the Prime Principle of Confirmation. I will be addressing an objection to this principle, but for the sake of dialectical clarity here is a formulation of the whole argument:

    1. The fine-tuning data are not improbable under theism.
    2. The fine-tuning data are very improbable under single-universe atheism.
    3. If some evidence is not improbable under A but very improbable under B, then that evidence provides strong evidence for A.
    4. So, the fine-tuning data provide strong evidence to favor the design hypothesis over single-universe atheism.

    The Prime Principle of Confirmation is premise 3 in the above argument. It states that when we are considering two competing hypotheses, an observation counts as evidence for the hypothesis under which the observation is most likely. For example, let's say that I walk into my friend's room and there is a puddle of water on the floor and that my friend is nowhere to be seen. Next, I consider two possibilities (also for the sake of the example assume they are the only two possibilities). Either my friend spilled some water then stepped out to get a towel, or he spontaneously melted into a puddle of water. Since the former of these hypotheses seems more likely, the Principle states that the puddle counts as evidence that he spilled and left to get a towel.

    This principle may seem intuitively obvious, but the Doomsday Argument provides a promising counterexample. It comes from Michael Huemer's Paradox Lost and goes like this:

    If the human species continues to last for a good while longer, then the population will continue to increase and most of the humans who ever lived will live in a future advanced society. However, we find ourselves living in today's world, a primitive society by comparison. Since most of humanity will live in a more advanced society than ours under this hypothesis, it is surprising that we find ourselves living today. But, if the world is going to end in the near future, then it is not at all surprising that we find ourselves alive today. Therefore, since our being alive is more probable under the hypothesis that the world will end soon, it also counts as evidence that doomsday is close upon us.

    Certainly, this is an absurd result that we reached by applying the Prime Principle of Confirmation, and thus a strong counterexample to premise 3 in the teleological argument at the top of this post. I do not think that it succeeds, however. The supporter of the teleological argument can sidestep this trouble by claiming that the Principle has causal constraints. Consider the puddle example from earlier. The observation I made, that there is a puddle on the floor, was an effect that I used as evidence for the most likely cause. This mode of reasoning works because of the causal link between the proposed cause and the effect that I observed. In the doomsday argument, the observation we make, that we are alive right now, has no causal link to the end of the world. And so the Principle doesn't apply. To make this distinction clear I suggest we alter the teleological argument like this:

    1. The fine-tuning data are not improbable if they were caused by God.
    2. The fine-tuning data are very improbable if caused by anything other than God.
    3. If some evidence is not improbable under cause A but very improbable under cause B, then that evidence provides strong evidence for cause A.
    4. So, the fine-tuning data provide strong evidence that they were caused by God.
  • Agent Smith
    9.5k
    A stronger argument for God would be if the universe were impossible in which case chance would be completely eliminated from the list of candidate explanations for the genesis of the universe.

    Mirabile dictu, chance is a goddess, Fortuna. Heads you win, tails I lose! Either Yahweh or Tyche! Choose!
  • T Clark
    13.9k
    3. If some evidence is not improbable under A but very improbable under B, then that evidence provides strong evidence for A.SwampMan

    To be clear, premise 3 is the only one you want to discuss here. Is that correct? I have some issues with the first two premises, but that's not what we're discussing.

    Let's simplify. I have a die with six sides. On five sides there are single pips. On the sixth there are two pips. I'm going to roll the die and ask you to bet on what number will come up. What do you choose?

    Let's change that a little to make it more comparable to your situation. I roll the same die but hide it under a cup so you can't see the result. Is there "strong evidence" that there is a single pip on the side of the die facing up?

    So - is a high probability the same as evidence? I want to say "no" but I'm not sure I can justify that.
  • unenlightened
    9.2k
    1. Mr Normal's winning the lottery is very improbable if caused by chance.
    2. Mr Normal's winning the lottery is very probable if God causes him to win.
    3. As before.
    4.That someone normal often wins the lottery is strong evidence that God exists.

    I think the pungent essence of weasel lies in the proviso: "single-universe". For that, there is no evidence or justification. And allow a multi universe and there is no improbability at all, that we find ourselves in one of the ones that we could exist in.
  • noAxioms
    1.5k
    (also for the sake of the example assume they are the only two possibilities)SwampMan
    I notice this appeared in the puddle example but not the original one. It's like saying option 2 is "friend melted into a puddle and there's not a leak in the roof above", which makes the option deliberately unlikely for the purpose of 'proving' option 1.

    Perhaps the fallacy of the argument would be more clear if you removed the single-universe part. My conclusion from the premises in the OP is that the single-universe premise (not clearly defined) is unlikely. There is more than one roll of the die. That's certainly what science says given the evidence.

    Another note: Atheism is not an assertion of lack of a deity. It is simply a lack of belief in it, no different than a lack of belief that my mailbox will spontaneously explode tomorrow, despite lack of hard evidence that it will not. Not sure what the official word is to describe a belief in the unreality of a god.
  • Agent Smith
    9.5k
    Atheism is not an assertion of lack of a deity. It is simply a lack of belief in it, no different than a lack of belief that my mailbox will spontaneously explode tomorrow, despite lack of hard evidence that it will not. Not sure what the official word is to describe a belief in the unreality of a god.noAxioms

    This I never/don't got/get! Would you be so kind as to explain this to me. Thanks in advance.
  • Philosophim
    2.6k
    Atheism is not an assertion of lack of a deity. It is simply a lack of belief in it, no different than a lack of belief that my mailbox will spontaneously explode tomorrow, despite lack of hard evidence that it will not. Not sure what the official word is to describe a belief in the unreality of a god.
    — noAxioms

    This I never/don't got/get! Would you be so kind as to explain this to me. Thanks in advance.
    Agent Smith

    If someone has never heard of a God, they aren't atheist, they are just ignorant. Once a person has heard of a God, it is up to the people who believe in a God to prove that it exists.

    To help out, lets imagine a unicorn. I might ask, "Where can I find a unicorn?" If your answer does not let me find a unicorn, then I don't believe it exists. Now, do we say that I had to prove that the unicorn did not exist? No. Can I assert that a unicorn does not exist? Yes. But this "assertion" isn't what noAxioms is trying to convey. The person who believes a unicorn doesn't exist doesn't have to prove anything. That's the assertion noAxioms means.

    So yes, an athiest can claim, "God does not exist", but only because they don't see credible evidence of it. Asking someone to prove God doesn't exist is like asking a person to prove a unicorn does not exist. When you claim something exists, you have to prove it. Claiming something does not exist with a lack of proof, is default common sense.
  • Agent Smith
    9.5k


    @180 Proof clarified the matter to me in the clearest of terms.

    There are two kinds of arguments for god(s).

    1. Non-scientific arguments e.g. the ontological proof (vide infra).

    (i) The greatest imaginable being must exist or else the greatest imaginable being isn't the greatest imaginable being.

    (ii) Not the case that the greatest imaginable being is not the greatest imaginable being.

    Ergo,

    (iii) The greatest imaginable being exists [(i), (ii), DS]

    (iv) The greatest imaginable being is God [definition]

    (v) God exists [(iii), (iv) Id]

    How do we challenge this argument? We have to attack the premises or the logic. This is what we call refutation and all that this can achieve is to prove the ontological argument to be unsound. We can say it hasn't been proven that God exists.

    If, however, I were to claim god doesn't exist, I'd need my very own proof because refutation doesn't establish the falsity of the conclusion in re the argument that's been refuted. Atheists, in this case, need to make their case separately.

    2. Scientific arguments. The problem of evil (vide infra).

    (i) If God exists then there should be no evil

    (ii) There is evil

    Ergo,

    (iii) God does not exist [(i), (ii) MT]

    In such cases, the absence of evidence [the falsity of the consequent of the conditional (i)] is evidence of absence. There is no God. Atheists don't have to craft a separate argument in this scenario.

    As you can see, it depends on the type of argument being made as to whether atheists need to argue their position or not.
  • Philosophim
    2.6k
    As you can see, it depends on the type of argument being made as to whether atheists need to argue their position or not.Agent Smith

    If you are arguing against an evidenced position, then yes. If you simply decide to not accept evidence, than no. Not accepting evidence in this case still makes you an atheist, but it also does not negate the theist's point either. I think the problem is sometimes atheism is misconstrued as "anti-theism" which actively tries to discount theism.

    One can be an atheist, and not have adequately answered presented evidence from theists. We would probably say that atheist wasn't very rational, and could be wrong, but it wouldn't negate what they are.
  • noAxioms
    1.5k
    There are two kinds of arguments for god(s).Agent Smith
    which apparently you group into scientific and non-scientific, but I think they're all non-scientific since any model that posits such a thing is outside of the methodological naturalism under which science operates, and under which the bulk of its progress has been made.

    All the arguments I've seen claiming the necessity of god or the necessity of not-god are fallacious. OK, some don't claim proof but only evidence, which is better at least.

    As for the OP, my main point was that it supplied only two possibilities, the one favored (an intentional supernatural creator) and only one other possibility which was deliberately chosen to be improbable. The implicit premise is that these are the only two possibilities, without which the conclusion (high probability of deliberate creation) does not follow.
  • 180 Proof
    15.3k
    As you can see, it depends on the type of argument being made as to whether atheists need to argue their position or not.Agent Smith
    For almost two decades my default has been "to argue the position" regardless by demonstrating that the sine qua non claims of theism are not true (and thereby entailing that 'theistic deities' are merely imaginary). I don't directly address "god" or "God" itself, only the claims made about it or entailed by predicates attributed (via "revelation" or "speculation") to it in a fashion analogous to negative theology. I don't bother with the contradictions / inconsistencies of "sacred scriptures" or religious dogmas; it suffices to demonstrate that all theistic religions are founded on the same untruth.
  • Agent Smith
    9.5k
    predicates attributed180 Proof

    :up: Magnifique!

    Predicates, essentially properties, entail certain, specific observables. For example if John is good (predicate) then he should be a law-abiding citizen with no police record (observable). If we find that's not the case, say he's been arrested more than once for drug possession, we can safely say John isn't good.

    This same technique is employed by Epicurus in his now-famous Epicurean riddle: If god is all-good, all-knowing, all-powerful, evil should not exist. Yet evil does exist. Hence god is not all-good or all-knowing or all-powerful i.e. there is no god (atheism).


    Did I capture the essence of your position on theism/atheism?
  • 180 Proof
    15.3k
    Almost, sort of ...
  • Agent Smith
    9.5k
    Almost, sort of ...180 Proof

    Good enough (for government work), would you say?
  • Agent Smith
    9.5k
    Maybe180 Proof

    Oh!

    Can you explicate the matter further for my benefit, if it's not too much to ask that is?
  • 180 Proof
    15.3k
    Follow my link in the previous post (and further links therein).
  • Agent Smith
    9.5k
    Follow my link in the previous post (and further links therein).180 Proof

    :ok:
  • Agent Smith
    9.5k
    lotteryunenlightened

    multi universeunenlightened

    :up:

    If there are 1,000,000,000 lottery tickets and you buy one, the odds of you winning are .

    If 1,000,000,000 people buy one ticket each, it's a certainty that there'll be an individual who'll hit the jackpot.
  • Agent Smith
    9.5k
    The main premise of the Doomsday argument: There's an upper limit to how many humans can live. If N is that number and the current population is n, we still have N - n number of people to live. Using actual numbers for n, N and population growth rate (exponential), we find that N will be attained in 9120 years. Ergo, an apocalypse is due :scream: , in and around the year 11142 AD.
  • noAxioms
    1.5k
    3. If some evidence is not improbable under A but very improbable under B, then that evidence provides strong evidence for A.

    The Prime Principle of Confirmation is premise 3 in the above argument.
    SwampMan
    I googled 'Prime Principle of Confirmation' and found no reference to the principle outside of any page related to ID arguments, leading me to believe that the ID folks made up this principle.

    Big edit: My first reading was that it started with "if 'A' is not improbable", but no, it says evidence is not improbable under A, which simply reduces the principle to a non-sequitur.

    Finding money under my pillow is not improbable if the tooth fairly exists, and not probable under 'B' where teeth left under a pillow overnight self-transform into random objects, possibly currency, via quantum tunneling. That this is strong evidence for the existence of an actual tooth fairy does not follow, but the fallacious principle above says it does.

    The main premise of the Doomsday argument: There's an upper limit to how many humans can liveAgent Smith
    No, that's not the premise. It does not presume any such upper limit, which would be sort of a fatalistic premise.

    The premise is that in any population that undergoes exponential growth, the vast majority of the individuals will come into existence near the end of that exponential growth. Think of a bacteria culture in a petri-dish of nutrients that are very slowly replenished.
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