I guess what I’m wondering is if there’s a word or phrase that denotes the difference between the working definition someone uses in daily life and the formal definition they’d give if asked — Brad Thompson
I have noticed lately that words (given the way we use language) must exist before their definitions, and concepts must exist before their words. — Brad Thompson
But within a system of language practice, words come to exert constraints over some state of interpretation. — apokrisis
Or even when used as the self-adressed speech of our inner voices - our thinking - they are employed to narrow uncertainty about what it is that we actually "have in mind". — apokrisis
If a word in fact fitted all exemplar cases too closely, speech would cease to have its creative edge, its flexibility of being able to encompass any number of one off, or particular, locutions. — apokrisis
:up:the idea of absolutely pinning down a word meaning goes against the whole spirit of effective communication — apokrisis
‘ Humpty Dumpty begins by asking Alice her name and her business:
‘My name is Alice, but––‘
‘It’s a stupid name enough!’ Humpty Dumpty interrupted impatiently. ‘What does it mean?’
‘Must a name mean something?’ Alice asked doubtfully.
‘Of course it must,’ Humpty Dumpty said with a short laugh: ‘my name means the shape I am – and a good handsome shape it is too. With a name like yours, you might be any shape, almost.’
....
[Humpty Dumpty}…and that shows that there are three hundred and sixty-four days when you might get un-birthday presents––‘
‘Certainly,’ said Alice.
‘And only one for birthday presents, you know. There’s glory for you!’
‘I don’t know what you mean by “glory”,’ Alice said.
‘Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. ‘Of course you don’t – till I tell you. I meant “there’s a nice knock-down argument for you!”’
‘But “glory” doesn’t mean “a nice knock-down argument”, Alice objected.
‘When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean–neither more nor less.’
‘The question is,’ said Alice, ‘whether you can make words mean different things – that’s all.’
‘The question is,’ said Humpty Dumpty, ‘which is to be master – that’s all’
So dictionary definitions are always awkward and frustrating as they treat language like a game of construction. A word carries some definite content in terms of its semantics. It starts with some complete certainty about the unit of information it represents. — apokrisis
I very much doubt a lexicographer would agree with you on that. — bert1
...the traditional dictionary definition, although it bears all the trappings of authority, is in fact a highly stylized, overly compressed and often tentative stab at capturing the consensus on what a particular word “means.” A good dictionary derives its reputation from careful analysis of examples of words in use, in the form of sentences, also called citations. The lexicographer looks at as many citations for each word as she can find (or, more likely, can review in the time allotted) and then creates what is, in effect, a dense abstract, collapsing into a few general statements all the ways in which the word behaves. A definition is as convention-bound as a sonnet and usually more compact. Writing one is considered, at least by anyone who has ever tried it, something of an art.
It sounded to me as if you changed your mind, but no matter. — bert1
And in case you haven't considered the art involved.... — apokrisis
To define it, we could play 20 questions. We could hierarchically constrain the possibility of being uncertain as to what "it" means.
Is it animal, vegetable or mineral? Is it a large or small animal? Is it a domestic or wild large animal? Is it a herbivore or carnivore wild large animal. — apokrisis
As others have noted, a thing can be described in terms of everything that it is not. Difference/distinction plays a central role. — jas0n
It does not specify the exact nature of some action. It instead narrows the scope of the possible by eliminating every other alternative. — apokrisis
I guess what I’m wondering is if there’s a word or phrase that denotes the difference between the working definition someone uses in daily life and the formal definition they’d give if asked, — Brad Thompson
that’s what I’m saying. — Brad Thompson
I’m also saying that the difference between a working definition and a formal definition has massive pedagogical and societal consequences. — Brad Thompson
This is wrong. If words existed before definitions then why do different languages that use different words have the same definition? How is it that different string of scribbles mean the same thing? To translate different words from different languages means the different words have the same meaning. We're not sharing words. We're sharing meanings.I have noticed lately that words (given the way we use language) must exist before their definitions, and concepts must exist before their words. — Brad Thompson
You seem to be conflating what some scribble could arbitrarily mean when not being used with with what it means when it used. I'm sure you have something specific you mean when you use your words, or else what are you actually saying?If a word in fact fitted all exemplar cases too closely, speech would cease to have its creative edge, its flexibility of being able to encompass any number of one off, or particular, locutions. — apokrisis
DefinitionMeaning is use. — Ludwig Wittgenstein
And as I said, words are only specific when used and arbitrary when not. The only example I can think of when words are "used" and the meaning is not specific is when a politician speaks in generalities and platitudes, essentially not saying anything useful. Another example might be the word salad and misuse of terms that creates the philosophical problems one claims they are attempting to solve that appears on these forums regularly. So I see arbitrary use of words as a misuse of words.Well, relatively specific. And relatively general. Depending on the needs of the occasion. As I said. — apokrisis
I cannot pinpoint at what point in that story where it happened, but I am confident that the category “art” already exists in this hypothetical primate society.
I guess what I’m wondering is if there’s a word or phrase that denotes the difference between the working definition someone uses in daily life and the formal definition they’d give if asked...
...if this phenomenon has been studied in depth recently, and if there are any behavioral interventions that can help a person to bridge that gap, or at least be aware of it. Any help, and anything I might have missed, will be greatly appreciated. — Brad Thompson
So I see arbitrary use of words as a misuse of words. — Harry Hindu
Talking about words and groups the word sociolect is one to know. — trogdor
In some schools of Mahāyāna Buddhism, it is said that Buddha's actual spoken words (i.e. all of the content preserved in the Buddhist scriptures) are only baubles or toys to attract the ignorant. His actual meaning is forever unspoken and communicated in silence. (This is the gist of the legendary origin of Zen Buddhism in the Flower Sermon.) — Wayfarer
In some schools of Mahāyāna Buddhism, it is said that Buddha's actual spoken words (i.e. all of the content preserved in the Buddhist scriptures) are only baubles or toys to attract the ignorant. His actual meaning is forever unspoken and communicated in silence. (This is the gist of the legendary origin of Zen Buddhism in the Flower Sermon.) — Wayfarer
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