in Russia students of 15 years of age demonstrate a level of knowledge “below average”
So, maybe not "little to no education", but I wouldn't call any of this quality. — Christoffer
I don't think you know what you're talking about. — jamalrob
It's easy to miss the smaller communities/villages, rural and countryside areas of Russia when evaluating the educational system in Russia since most of what we see is the front view of the major cities and the illusion of national wealth that they demonstrate through that image. — Christoffer
My point was about education, unbiased education as a foundation for people to be able to view their own nation's politics critically. If you get nothing but state-approved knowledge or live in a village where they shut down the school... what then? — Christoffer
I think you built a Russophobic fantasy of ignorant subservient masses in your head and then attempted, and failed, to find academic studies proving it's true. — jamalrob
That description was closer to what was happening: an attempt (that failed).Western narrative built up the Western highway as "the big battle to siege Kiev" — boethius
I think Russia can change and it isn't destined to be in a vicious circle of totalitarianism and gangster capitalism. The future isn't an extrapolation from history: even if Russia has only few short attempts of having democracy, that isn't an obstacle that it couldn't overcome.If you're wondering how Russia can change its politics, education isn't the primary problem. — jamalrob
So, you mean that the fact that a large portion of Russians is educated, especially outside of the denser cities, is racist? — Christoffer
Is Russian soldiers not even knowing what Ukraine is or what Chernobyl is because they didn't get any education about any of it... racist? — Christoffer
a nation under a government that is corrupt or has little means to handle poverty on their own and almost no people educated enough to be able to work to better the nation's situation, does not need to change that status quo? And helping those nations with getting children free education so that this structural problem can be bypassed in order to have a new generation that can build something better on their own... is racist? — Christoffer
you don't understand what I mean with education enabling active thinking about ongoing problems in their nations? Like, you don't get that I'm implying that education gives tools to channel the intellect because if you have knowledge about the world, you can organize thinking philosophically to arrive at solutions to problems you need to solve. — Christoffer
I, of course, mean that they have gotten an education that gives them the tools, the knowledge to deconstruct the problems in their nation. — Christoffer
If you get poor nations free education, you give the people the ability to more effectively think about their own life and their country and how to fix things that are broken with it. — Christoffer
But it is a fact that the Russians who want to get rid of Putin, the corruption, the war and everything are the educated, more wealthy citizens of the major cities. — Christoffer
Nowhere did I even remotely imply that poor nations have lesser intellects, that's your words, your writing, your concept in mind, not mine. So stop making that part of my argument, I talked nothing of the sort. — Christoffer
learning philosophy, math, politics, nature, writing, and reading, tools for thought, tools to use intellect for change. — Christoffer
But then there's the socialist extreme left who think inventing utopias in their heads solves real problems people face right now. So far I'm all for structuring away from neoliberal market societies, but the radical socialists have dreams just as problematic. And how is that a solution to what I'm writing about?
How is that a solution to freeing the people of Russia from Putin's authoritarian boot? This is the problem I'm talking about, you have no actual real-world solution, you have a utopia in your head, a conceptual dream that won't help anyone until their basic needs are met. — Christoffer
Because if you want to change for the better when every one of them is bad... you pick the lesser evil. — Christoffer
I want you to pick a type of society that can actually be implemented in Russia that will enable a better outcome than my example. — Christoffer
I just have a greater understanding of the concept of time and change. Political landscapes are just like geography, mountains stand strong because they change slowly. Changes that are stable and fundamental for a nation might take many generations to reach its final stable goal and when reaching them they have merely become a synthesis of more concepts than originally thought up.
But such change needs a foundation so it can change. If free speech, free and independent media, free communication, free education, free knowledge, and a great protection of the people and their voice against power is there at the foundation, it is the soil that new types of societies can grow out of. If you take that away, like in Russia, like in many nations with authoritarian regimes, you take away the soil and the growth dies, becomes dirt and static death.
Utopias mean nothing if there's no soil for them to grow out of. Dreaming of such utopias means nothing if the goal is to change the world. You start with the soil and go from there and if the fact of the world today is that this "soil" is most common in westernized nations, then so be it, that's a fact of reality right now, start there and build from there instead of trying to grow where there is no soil. — Christoffer
I'm wondering if the harsh sanctions may have been a mistake. If it just closes Russia off to the rest of the world, that's unfortunate. — frank
They are. No doubt about it to my mind. Perhaps isolate sanctions to oligarchs and Putin, try to make these bite, other sanctions only hurt the population. — Manuel
Kremlinologist — Punshhh
So your point now is not the quality of education as measured by the widely-accepted standards of authoritative organizations such as the OECD. Your point is that Russian education doesn't allow or encourage students to be critical of the government. That's probably true, but that's not what you said. I think you built a Russophobic fantasy of ignorant subservient masses in your head and then attempted, and failed, to find academic studies proving it's true. — jamalrob
At present, Russian society is experiencing powerful and swift social segmentation which includes strong differentiation in access to higher education. It took 10 to 20 years to change the previous system, to leave behind the free higher education to which we became accustomed over the 70-year history of the USSR, and move to a higher education system which is not free. Social segmentation has increased in the post-Soviet period and inequality in education has become much more significant as early as at the pre-school level. The barriers at this stage are the same as at others: family income, geographical factors (the most vulnerable groups are residents of rural and less urbanized areas where the network of kindergartens is not sufficiently developed), health factors (barriers exist not only for the disabled, but also for those in poorer health) and the information parents are able to gather (Monitoring 2003, Seliverstova, 2005). As early as kindergarten the same question of equity emerges: what kind of education is accessible, if it is accessible at all mass or elite education, “bad” or “good” (the latter offering a greater range of services but for fees)? And if mass and “bad” are becoming synonyms, what social functions does such education perform? These questions, of course, are identical to those that appear in analyzing the situation at the level of secondary and higher education. It would seem that today’s educational inequalities in Russia will tend to grow, as the process does not contain any counteracting forces, governmental or societal. In this context, the position of the best-resourced groups in society will continue to be reinforced, while the position and opportunities of the weakest will continue to
deteriorate. Although inequality is not officially endorsed, it is gradually becoming the norm, becoming more legitimate, more institutionalized (via corruption, for instance), more rigid, more entrenched and more persistent. In the context of mass higher education, inequality is not so much inequality in obtaining a higher education as such, but inequality in obtaining a higher education of good quality, an elite or specialized higher education. Without a set of adequate compensatory counter-measures, this situation will lead to the crystallization of elite groups, the very sort of class inequality which Russia set out to escape from in the early twentieth century. Gaps in public policy have contributed to the development of inequality in access to higher education and in constitutional rights to free higher education. Having minimized all the mechanisms of governance and control, and the distribution and redistribution of revenue, the state is yet to develop policy directed towards reducing inequality. This task ought to become an essential focus of public policy.
The best tertiary education is indeed concentrated in the major cities, and that's where all of the ministers and beaureacrats went to university. High quality education is no guarantee that students will be able to oppose the government. Those who are most loyal to the Russian government are among the best educated in the country. Your thinking on this is too simplistic. — jamalrob
it might just be because the idea that "nasty politics is caused by bad education" (paraphrasing) is very dear to you, and you thought you could apply it to Russia just as you do to far-right European politics. — jamalrob
Fighting a war over a flag is without doubt immoral. — neomac
But more importantly the racist trope is the idea that 'education' (from Western sources) is needed to teach people things like how to govern, how to hold government to account, to avoid tyranny... — Isaac
But all that's required to govern is thought. No specialist expensive equipment is required. — Isaac
they need us to teach them, they can't, parent-to-child, simply teach their own children how to be good citizens — Isaac
That is inherent racism. It's about the narrative that we in the (largely white) West are civilised and peaceful and we have to teach the violent uncivil 'natives' how do do it. — Isaac
Do you know where the chemical waste dump outside Liverpool is? You're taking a perspective of some knowledge you happen to have — Isaac
It's outrageous and it perpetuates racist tropes. — Isaac
American education is a mess of religious indoctrination, crowd control and vocational treadmills. Are you so sure an American conscript (should such a thing exist) have the faintest idea what to do or not to do at Chernobyl? — Isaac
Yes. Again, it's a racist trope that they can't simply do this for themselves. Why does it need a school? Why does it need a qualified teacher? Which country (which racial heritage) would have educated that teacher? It's all about information flowing from the 'civilised races' to the 'uncivilised' ones. Why cant a parent in these countries simply teach their own child what they themselves have worked out about how to be a good citizen using their own rich and long cultural heritage? — Isaac
No. I disagree with you about it. — Isaac
Education enables active thinking about ongoing problems in the nation. Education gives tools to channel the intellect because if you have knowledge about the world, you can organize thinking philosophically to arrive at solutions to problems you need to solve. — Christoffer
It just means you lack the imagination to see how others could see things differently. — Isaac
I know what you mean. I disagree. People in poorer nations do not need to be "given tools". to deconstruct the problems in their nations. They know what the fucking problems are, it's our boot on their fucking neck. — Isaac
The assumption implicit here is that they lack this ability natively. That there's something about their native culture that needs 'fixing', by us. — Isaac
So on what grounds are you claiming it's their education and not their wealth which gives them the leeway to oppose Putin? — Isaac
You literally just implied it in the paragraph from which this quote is taken... — Isaac
learning philosophy, math, politics, nature, writing, and reading, tools for thought, tools to use intellect for change. — Christoffer
Why can a Russian child (or an Indian child, or a Senegalese child...) not simply learn those thing from his or her parent? from his or her grandparent, cultural leader, religious teacher, stories...or just watching their parents live life? Why do they need some (universally white, western) textbooks to tell them all those things? — Isaac
So again, what you mean when you say "people haven't supplied me with an answer..." is "I disagree with the answer...". It's astonishing on a philosophy forum how often this seems to need repeating...
Something seeming to to you to be the case is not the same as it actually being the case.
People disagree about what is the case. — Isaac
Yes, but you've still not answered the question. Why must they pick the lesser evil from already existing alternatives? Why not pick the lesser evil from some theoretical system? Why not try something new? — Isaac
Again...
Something seeming to to you to be the case is not the same as it actually being the case.
You just thinking all that doesn't render it the case. — Isaac
It's been a long time since armies met on a field and did battle away from the civilian populations. Urban war is bound to destroy people and property. — Bitter Crank
EUROPE
International outrage grows over civilian killings — BBC
Civilian killings where? Yemen? Iraq? Other conflict regions we cannot name because the news does not name them? — FreeEmotion
In 2020, 67% of all citizens age 18 and older reported voting, up 5 percentage points from 2016 (Figure 1).
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