I see. I think you might be affected by media that I'm not exposed to. — frank
Do you watch televised news? — frank
I'm trying to understand people who are quick to defend Russia. — frank
One can see it happening here with Bucha: — ssu
The reason why you think I don't have that attitude with respect to the USA is because too many people pretend it's a force for good. So there, to get a fuller picture again, I need to remind people what a shit country it is. From the way it treats its own citizens to its international acts. — Benkei
The reason why you think I don't have that attitude with respect to the USA is because too many people pretend it's a force for good. — Benkei
Not a peep from the public school system about the American Empire, the blood on our hands. — ZzzoneiroCosm
I admit to highlighting a particular view when I believe it broadens the context. I would do the same when talking about the Netherlands but unfortunately nobody here is interested in my little country. — Benkei
I see. So from what non-western source did you anticipate this 'education' coming. Which textbooks of say, Senegalese, origin were you thinking of? — Isaac
What 'specialist equipment' is required to investigate critical thinking? — Isaac
No. Again, I disagree that philosophy is built on methods to make sure you don't get stuck in biases. — Isaac
Well I'm a professor of Psychology - so there's that. — Isaac
And your evidence for this would be? — Isaac
Well, if it's so naive then there's something very wrong with the recruitment strategy of England's major Universities. — Isaac
people in these countries have simply failed to work it out for themselves, they need us to teach them, they can't, parent-to-child, simply teach their own children how to be good citizens, they need us to come along and show them. — Isaac
By claiming that native education methods limit this access you are claiming that these 'tools' only exist outside of these cultures. That is the racist element. Why do these tools only exist outside of these cultures? — Isaac
Known to you. I know about Liverpool's chemical waste dump. — Isaac
Of course America is not the sole representative of 'the West', but it is a significant power. So when you say 'westernise' that could lead either to Sweden or America. What prevents one route and promotes the other? Not 'western' values clearly - they're represented by both. — Isaac
Right. So what Senegalese thinkers were included in your oh-so-non-westernised education? — Isaac
Yes. That's exactly what I disagree with. — Isaac
What exactly do you not agree with? Or are you saying... on a philosophy forum... that the concept of philosophy itself is bullshit?
— Christoffer
Yes. Again, that something seems to you to be the case does not mean it actually is the case. Your incredulity is not an argument. — Isaac
Is a high level of knowledge required to reach wisdom?
— Christoffer
No. — Isaac
you don't even understand that my idea of quality; unbiased education is about gaining the ability to see different perspectives. It's the core point of how to be able to think critically.
— Christoffer
I perfectly well understand it. I disagree with it. — Isaac
Since education and development aid, growth in fair trade, reduction of debt, withdrawal of support for corrupt regimes...all tend to go hand-in hand. I don't see how you could present any evidence that it was the education that did it. — Isaac
How? Explain the mechanism. We have the 'boot' of trade tariffs, pecuniary aid terms, environmental pressures, military power imbalances, arms sales to oppressive governments, political power being abused for financial gain, TNCs exploiting cheap labour... then you give the children of the country a good Western education and then...? What? How does knowing about Plato sort all those problems out? Talk me through the process. — Isaac
Exactly. Why didn't they already have access to methods of unbiased thinking from their own rich cultural heritage? What was wrong with them, that they didn't come up with these 'methods' already? They certainly didn't need any specialist technology. They had more time than we had. So explain to me, in non-racist terms, why these cultures (which have had longer to think about it than we have) don't already have these 'methods of unbiased thinking'? — Isaac
If it is universal, then why is it not already part of their culture? Why is it not already passed down from parent to child, or cultural leader to children? — Isaac
How? You've suggested education. I disagree, so suddenly I'm saying we should do nothing? How on earth have you arrived at the conclusion that anything that isn't education is 'nothing'? — Isaac
You haven't. You've just vaguely waived about the words 'education' and 'westernised'. I could counter by vaguely waiving about the terms 'socialism' and 'worker's revolution'. — Isaac
Right.
My suggestion is exactly the same without the so-called 'free' market, and with worker-owned means of production. — Isaac
What's on offer right now is none of the things we actually agree on and just the one we disagree on. What's being offered to Ukraine is western financial support in return for a reduction in social welfare, an increase in elite ownership over the means of production, and an opening up of markets. — Isaac
So nothing to do with the comment you cited then. — Isaac
It's not their lives. Zelensky (and his government) decide how to proceed. Western governments decide in what way to assist. Ukrainian children die. They didn't get a say in the matter. — Isaac
This was not always the case. The Netherlands had an oversea empire in South Africa and Indonesia. They invented the apartheid system to rule it, primarily to avoid inter-racial sex and marriage. Their very long war against the independent-minded Acehnese became a war of extermination. Dutch troops wiped out entire villages and murdered civilians by the thousands. That's how they 'won'. — Olivier5
I don't need to worry about balance. So most of the stuff you're saying is just misunderstood by me. I don't have the same concerns you do, so I don't get the intent. — frank
I suspect one of them is doing it for the money.
— Olivier5
I meant people like that in general. — frank
If the bloodshed stopped, then there would be plenty of time to debate the morality from first principles and what longer term policies may prevent and minimise wars in the future, including policies with respect to Russia. War crimes should be investigated, for various reasons, including that it hopefully dissuades more war crimes in the future. — boethius
My take is that's a naïve form of anti-americanism. They really really think Biden is worse or scarier that Putin. That kind of ideas is more likely to exist in parochial folks who never travelled much beyond their little country, because it takes only a few days in a dictatorship to understand what's happening. The difference with your average semi-healthy democratic country is hard to miss. — Olivier5
No reason to expect the bloodshed to stop, nor to wait for the bloodshed to stop first before we can debate morality. — Olivier5
The linkage between the dead and the Russian military was established immediately, without any fact-based data to back it up, and subsequently echoed in all forms of media – mainstream and social alike. Anyone who dared question the established “Russia did it” narrative was shouted down and belittled as a “Russian shill,” or worse. — RT
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