I said he continued the war that Ukraine started by refusing to accept Crimea and Dombas right to self determination. — boethius
On 21 February 2014, Yanukovych and parliamentary opposition leaders signed an agreement calling for an interim government and early elections. The following day, Yanukovych fled Kyiv and later Ukraine;[89] parliament subsequently voted to remove him from office.[90][91][92] Leaders in Russian-speaking eastern Ukraine declared continuing loyalty to Yanukovych,[93] leading to pro-Russian unrest.[94] — Wikipedia
I'm pretty they can get the Ukrainian perspective anytime of the day or night by turning on CNN. — boethius
Kremlin hopes operation in Ukraine ends ‘in coming days’
Either the Russian forces will reach their goals in Ukraine or Moscow and Kiev will reach an agreement in the near future, the Kremlin says — RT
And where have I denounced or denied NATO enlargement being one reason for Putin's actions? Quote me, don't just assign views to me you find convenient.Where have I denounced those other reasons? Quote me, don't just assign views to me you find convenient. — Isaac
Didn't the war start because of the 2014 coup in Ukraine, and if Russia had somehow prevented the coup from taking place, then it would have avoided war? — FreeEmotion
CNN: Weapons for Ukraine
Russian soldiers discussed atrocities
Video appears to show execution of Russian prisoner by Ukrainian forces (does this help Russia?) — FreeEmotion
Actually this is one issue worth wile to point out: the role Putin's Russia has taken to itself as the protector of ethnic Russians everywhere. Abkhazia, South Ossetia, Transnistria etc. and not only Crimea and the Donbass. All these enclaves used for intervention in Georgia, Moldova and Ukraine.You left out the consideration that a successful resolution by a people of whom 50% of their relatives are Russian might cause problems in Russia for Putin as well, which is why it was also important for him to intervene. — Benkei
All the demands on the table from Russia before this war started were about: NATO expansion.
This war would not have happened but for: NATO expansion.
Other motives and strategic goals were ancillary at best. — Benkei
The UK and US are heavily invested in this war and its continuance, so don't imagine their official representatives will do anything other than stoke the flames — Leto
And where have I denounced or denied NATO enlargement being one reason for Putin's actions? Quote me — ssu
NATO enlargement is simply a side issue here, one thing that Putin extensively uses as a pretext for his imperialistic ambitions. Which, of course when it comes to Russia, are "defensive".
The real issue here is that Russia with Putin at it's helm didn't understand that the Russian Empire was over. — ssu
this just shows how illogical and wrong it is to believe the fig-leaf of NATO expansion being the reason for this invasion. — ssu
Why the incessant urge to denounce every other reason but NATO enlargement as the cause for this war? — ssu
This is a big subject.I'd consider that a lack of imagination. Medieval peasants worked less than the average American and we're inexorably moving in that direction in Europe as well. By some measures feudalism would be preferable depending on what stage of capitalism you're living in.
Isn't Zelensky the reason this is still going on?
If he would have left the country, Ukraine would be part of Russia now, right? — frank
Didn't the war start because of the 2014 coup in Ukraine, and if Russia had somehow prevented the coup from taking place, then it would have avoided war?
— FreeEmotion
Exactly, you can keep making these sort of "debateoids" forever. — boethius
However, Western media will need to sell a peace deal to Western audience — boethius
Isn't Zelensky the reason this is still going on?
If he would have left the country, Ukraine would be part of Russia now, right?
— frank
Good point. That's probably true, and would explain the relentless character assassination attempts by the representative of the Federation of Russia on TPF. They also tried to kill him for real, twice. — Olivier5
Russia’s currency jumped as much as 7.3% on Thursday, sealing its rebound from a collapse that followed the nation’s invasion of Ukraine and sanctions that isolated it from the global financial system. A key driver of the latest gains is the continued demand for Russia’s oil and gas in Europe and elsewhere, handing the country almost $1 billion a day in revenue. — Bloomberg
The worst thing Putin has done in Ukraine is to reconcile the authorities with the people. The president has turned from an object of universal criticism into the Ukrainian Charles de Gaulle. The general of the Ukrainian Interior Ministry offers to deliver himself to the Russian army in exchange for the release of civilians from the besieged city and becomes a national hero. The entire population of Ukraine, from the homeless to the oligarch, unites in a common struggle. It is the same as in the USSR in 1941, when Stalin called everyone “brothers and sisters” and people believed in his sincerity. If that war was a domestic war for the USSR, then this became a domestic war for Ukraine. Kharkov and Mariupol are perceived as Stalingrad, Leningrad or the Brest Fortress.
...Ukraine has always been good at one thing: it was always normal to depose the ruler who displeased the people. This made it different from Muscovy (ancient Russia), where the figure of the Tsar was sacred. The exceptions were the Time of Troubles, which was ended by the merchant (Minin) and the prince (Pozharsky). But in Ukraine, it has always been the rule that unpopular leaders are forced out. This Ukrainian tradition goes back at least to the Cossack times. How many Ukrainian Cossack atamans have paid with their positions, and sometimes with their lives, for “unpopular measures”! Whether this tradition will continue now is hard to say.
[In Russia,] It should be added that if in the wild 1990s, the Russian businessmen were saved from a new popular revolution by gangster strife, which killed off a significant part of the active population (and not the worst part, because in such strife, the first ones to die were the ones who retained a vestige of their humanity, whereas the worst scoundrels survived), now that part same of population will be ground up in the war (and in similar strife after it, when the soldiers who are accustomed to robbing and killing will return from the front). In short, unless some “black swan” flies to the aid of the Russian people, Russia will repeat the Yeltsin-Putin three decades, after which the country will most likely perish [sic], except for Moscow and a few other regions, where there will be established a “thriving economy” with a 12-hour workday for the common people and elite restaurants and brothels for the oligarchs.
Crimea never would've become a part of Russia if the US hadn't been meddling in the internal affairs of Ukraine for decades already. — Benkei
Hypotheticals are difficult as you yourself implied, but simply use your head here, Benkei. I know you have one. — ssu
Always nice to be reminded about being infinitely critical of state power, unlike Western liberals who, having learnt the name 'Zelensky' in the last two months having never heard the name before in their lives, have turned him into a new Bono to fangirl over. — StreetlightX
Apart from justifications, what I meant was that the undemocratic political processes and what amounts to Ukraine's sovereignty caused ethnic conflict and instability. Sounds rather familiar, sounds like some sort of a plan, or Chernobyl - like accident. There is no doubt those involved know what actually happened. Neither side is at fault, but a third, outside force and 'actor' to use the term somewhat in irony, seems to be to blame. — FreeEmotion
Sounds like a dirty, disingenuous circus act-like media manipulation, not 'journalism' by any stretch of the imagination. More like a soft Mafia. — FreeEmotion
Zelenskyy promised to end Ukraine's protracted conflict with Russia as part of his presidential campaign — Olivier5
and has attempted to engage in dialogue with Russian president Vladimir Putin. — Olivier5
How's that going, exactly? — StreetlightX
Wiki would no doubt forget that Zelensky's popularity was in the dumps before the war, — StreetlightX
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