But what we're being asked here to accept, by ssu, @SophistiCat, @Christoffer et al, is that all that just happened by chance, just dumb luck. That the most politically influential nation on earth didn't, on this occasion, use its enormous power to bring any of that about, it just sat on its hands instead... — Isaac
It raised a lot of eyebrows at the time, and China has had to move to clarify after the recent invasion. It's now repositioning it as "a gaurentee against nuclear weapons," which still has relevance for Russia's first use "escalate to descalate" doctrine. — Count Timothy von Icarus
China has pledged since 1964 that it would not be the first party in a conflict to use nuclear weapons. The South China Morning Post reported in October that Beijing had reiterated its “no first use” policy, despite some officials urging a rethink.
The United States has repeatedly refused to adopt a “no first use” policy, but has vowed not to use nukes against countries that do not have them.
I live in a liberal district in US. What should I encourage my senators/representatives to do? Should I tell them to vote against giving further aid to Ukraine? Should I write a letter to Biden saying that he should encourage Ukraine to surrender to avoid further death & destruction? — EricH
Ask your representatives if they can live with themselves not killing thousands of people all over the world for the sake of national security, for a start. — FreeEmotion
killing thousands of people all over the world for the sake of national security — FreeEmotion
You have a fixation on the US. As everything has to be about the US, it is you are the one exculpating Russia here because everything has to be about the US.The problem I'm having is that every single comment you make seels to exculpate the US, NATO and Europe. — Isaac
Because you are making this all to be in your mind a US lead thing. And you simply blatantly disregard everything else. You just simply stack up things that are later responses to events that have happened as to be somehow the causes. The US is one actor, but so is Russia and so is Ukraine.We might try to have a reasonable conversation about what you really meant, but at the end of the day, I can't ignore the fact that there's a glaringly obvious agenda uniting your comments, a common thread running through them of exculpating the West. — Isaac
Yes, why? Answer honestly why has Russia turned itself into a pariah? Or how has the US turned Russia into a pariah state? Because it's crucial to the whole narrative here.1. A major legitimate nuclear power among America's major emerging competitors (the BRIC countries) has turned itself into a pariah, meaning the others can no longer rely on its legitimate nuclear opposition to America. Thus diminishing America's competition for influence in the far East. — Isaac
The main supplier was long QATAR, actually. The US became only in 2019 a major player in LNG as earlier it simply didn't have the means to transfer it's LNG to Europe.2. America, the main alternative supplier of gas to Europe (as LNG), gets to increase it's share of the market — Isaac
U.S. liquefied natural gas (LNG) export capacity has grown rapidly since the Lower 48 states first began exporting LNG in February 2016. In 2019, the United States became the world’s third-largest LNG exporter, behind Australia and Qatar.
I don't know where this comes from.5. The lucrative markets of the world's bread basket get resoundingly secured as Ukraine will never again consider looking East for aid and trade deals. — Isaac
And so do European arms manufacturers. Yes, and why has that happened? Why are the countries increasing their military budgets?3. American arms manufacturers make a fortune from both direct sales and the increased militarisation of Europe. — Isaac
And here you conveniently forget totally forgets where the actual assistance will come for Ukraine to rebuild it's economy, from the EU.6. The IMF get to fully control the economy of this new market to suit its needs because Ukraine will be so heavily in debt (and so bereft of alternatives) that it will have no choice. — Isaac
Von der Leyen said she intended to, "present Ukraine's application to the [European] Council this summer."
During the joint press conference von der Leyen said: "Russia will descend in economic, financial and technological decay while Ukraine is marching towards a European future."
Nobody has said that. Developments that you have described quite inaccurately are results of Putin's actions. Responses to those action.But what we're being asked here to accept, by ssu, @SophistiCat, @Christoffer et al, is that all that just happened by chance, just dumb luck. — Isaac
I'm not an American.Lol imagine thinking the US even gives an iota of a shit about 'human rights, free press, and fair elections'. Jfc you post literal propaganda and expect to the taken seriously. — StreetlightX
I think that most countries in the Global South have condemned Russia’s invasion but have been very hesitant to go beyond that, at this point, and be dragged into a US-NATO-led bloc. I think this is a recognition of three things. One is that it was partly NATO’s expansion right up to the borders of Russia that created the conditions for Putin’s countermove. This push to get countries on the border with Russia into NATO has been going on since 1994.
The West, and in particular the United States, has been involved in regime change in Ukraine, especially with the Maidan uprising in 2014, very much linked to fascist groups. And now this is being used by the United States for a real drive to regain its primacy as the global hegemon, seeking to rescue its tattered reputation after its defeat and withdrawal from Afghanistan, which was also a NATO defeat.
...Yes, I think [Western double-standards] is one of the reasons why Global South countries are keeping a distance from the US efforts to drag them onto Washington’s side. Definitely the double standards in relation to Ukraine versus the Iraq War, the civil war in Syria, the Palestine-Israeli long war, and the Saudi genocidal war in Yemen, that is all very clear in the Global South and there is an awareness of the real historical record. We won’t be duped.
This is why trying to create a unified anti-Russian alliance isn’t going to work. Everyone knows there are clear double standards and the United States is really using the Ukrainian crisis to reassert its hegemony. I think Washington was hoping that somehow it would be able to reconstruct the past and create amnesia about what happened in the Middle East with its wars there, but that hasn’t worked.
Always ask 'who benefits'. — FreeEmotion
You have a fixation on the US. As everything has to be about the US, it is you are the one exculpating Russia here because everything has to be about the US. — ssu
you are the one exculpating Russia here because everything has to be about the US. — ssu
The mistake that the US did, or US/NATO, is that it made a promise it then didn't deliver. You don't answer that a country get "perhaps in the future" NATO membership. Fine. — ssu
you simply blatantly disregard everything else. — ssu
The idea that it was entirely within Ukraine's power to determine that they would mount this great a defence, or that Russia's offence would be so poor as to render it effective. To hold that belief, one would have to hold the corollary - that in cases where the defenders lost, they simply weren't themselves courageous enough to do the job. I don't hold to that belief, but rather to the fact that external forces can either hamper or bolster a defending people's morale. That the Belorussians, or the Afghans, or the Russians themselves even, aren't just lazy or cowards, they are not overthrowing their autocratic leaders because of material circumstances constraining the natural courage and conviction that all oppressed peoples have. — Isaac
Answer honestly why has Russia turned itself into a pariah? Or how has the US turned Russia into a pariah state? — ssu
The main supplier was long QATAR, actually. The US became only in 2019 a major player in LNG as earlier it simply didn't have the means to transfer it's LNG to Europe. — ssu
5. The lucrative markets of the world's bread basket get resoundingly secured as Ukraine will never again consider looking East for aid and trade deals. — Isaac
I don't know where this comes from.
The Russian navy has deployed a naval blockade on Ukrainian ports that will likely leave a huge amount of Ukrainian harvest to rot because you don't replace ship transport in months with land based transport, as the war continues.
And what is there for Ukraine not to trade with the East, with China? — ssu
3. American arms manufacturers make a fortune from both direct sales and the increased militarisation of Europe. — Isaac
And so do European arms manufacturers. Yes, and why has that happened? Why are the countries increasing their military budgets? — ssu
6. The IMF get to fully control the economy of this new market to suit its needs because Ukraine will be so heavily in debt (and so bereft of alternatives) that it will have no choice. — Isaac
And here you conveniently forget totally forgets where the actual assistance will come for Ukraine to rebuild it's economy, from the EU. — ssu
But what we're being asked here to accept, by ssu, SophistiCat, @Christoffer et al, is that all that just happened by chance, just dumb luck. — Isaac
Nobody has said that. Developments that you have described quite inaccurately are results of Putin's actions. Responses to those action. — ssu
Mods have been wallowing in low quality themselves on this thread, and have consistently played the anti-NATO flute. Disappointing. — Olivier5
the reason for the invasion can only be one or the other — Christoffer
So, yeah, this is all Putin. — Christoffer
being critical of Russia means Russophobia — Christoffer
everyone who spent years criticizing Nato and the US, siding with Russia because of it — Christoffer
the other Kremlinophilic idiots here — Olivier5
being rational means understanding more sides than one. — Christoffer
This thread is filled with self-righteous ideological BS instead of accepting what Russia is actually doing in Ukraine — Christoffer
their intellectual delusions by trying to sound smarter than all experts in the field, — Christoffer
What citation? I'm not writing to publish an essay here. Since the first sign of tension at the border towards Ukraine, I've been refreshing my own knowledge of everything related to all of this and through this conflict, I have two-three news outlets going simultaneously while deep diving and researching any development that happens. It's around the clock. And through all of this, I use rational induction of the facts and speculations that exist at the moment. — Christoffer
I expected some level of moral understanding, some level of understanding of pragmatic hard choices, but this thread is just as bad as any Reddit thread on the subject. — Christoffer
another stage of this operation is beginning — Sergei Lavrov (Apr 19, 2022)
I used to think so but I then checked on the corresponding Reddit thread, and found it better than here... — Olivier5
This lack of complexity or lack of understanding that a situation has more sides than two is the biggest problem in this thread — Christoffer
It's a circlejerk for everyone who spent years criticizing Nato and the US, siding with Russia because of it. — Christoffer
This thread is filled with self-righteous ideological BS instead of accepting what Russia is actually doing in Ukraine. — Christoffer
It's sickening the level of apologetics going on in here. — Christoffer
Ignoring the obvious war crimes and genocidal behaviors of a nation just to score some points on the anti-Nato board. — Christoffer
I rather turn to the real people around me actually researching this shit than continue trying to convince people who're stuck in their own echo chambers. — Christoffer
Out of curiosity, what are the worst takes/opinions youve seen in these live threads?
That NATO should place a bunch of missiles on the Finnish border by St Petersburg as soon as they join.
That attempted diplomacy is somehow bad, even though it very rarely hurts the situation and is always the preferable solution if it does work.
That Russia has never contributed anything to the world.
The continuous outrage that the UN is the UN and not whatever world government type of organization that people seem to think it is.
That the world is or could be forced to be fair. — khomyukk
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