Yes, and then there are useful idiots who are idiots enough to actually buy into the propaganda. I should have made that clear.

The most likely outcome is still Russia forcing Ukraine to capitulate through conventional warfare. That might take a month or a year depending on how much support Ukraine gets, but they're losing the war simply because they're facing a much more powerful opponent — Baden

And I for one wish they keep 'losing' it as effectively as they have so far.

buy into the propaganda — SophistiCat

So the Soufan centre are propagandists now? What evidence do you have for that accusation?

And I for one wish they keep 'losing' it as effectively as they have so far. — Olivier5

Really?

2,224 civilian deaths, of which 173 are children, 5 million refugees, 3,000 soldiers dead, countless infrastructure destroyed, $600 billion of damage...

...and you hope that continues?

It could be worse. The Russians could have taken Kiev for instance.

It could be worse. — Olivier5

It could be better. I was asking why you declared a preference that it continue this way.

So the Soufan centre are propagandists now? What evidence do you have for that accusation? — Isaac

Rather than fighting against neo-Nazis, Putin has been supporting far-right extremists including white supremacists, for years. Russia has nurtured neo-Nazis and used mercenaries and other extremists to wage a separatist war in Ukraine, while also seeking to execute Russian foreign policy abroad, and has deployed disinformation and misinformation tools to manipulate the narratives.

What alternative do you have in mind?

Rather than fighting against neo-Nazis, Putin has been supporting far-right extremists including white supremacists, for years. Russia has nurtured neo-Nazis and used mercenaries and other extremists to wage a separatist war in Ukraine, while also seeking to execute Russian foreign policy abroad, and has deployed disinformation and misinformation tools to manipulate the narratives. — Olivier5

Yes, so I read. Disgraceful. Not sure what that's got to do with denying there's a Neo-Nazi problem in Ukraine.

What alternative do you have in mind? — Olivier5

Peace.

And I for one wish they keep 'losing' it as effectively as they have so far. — Olivier5

While you may be enjoying the spectacle, they are dying and their country is being destroyed.

It has to do with your selective attention to nazis in Ukraine at the expense of nazis in the Kremlin.

While you may be enjoying the spectacle, they are dying and their country is being destroyed. — Baden

I am not enjoying it. Trust me on this.

Peace — Isaac

Peace is generally preferable to war, I agree. The Russians should stop their war of choice ASAP.

It has to do with your selective attention to nazis in Ukraine at the expense of nazis in the Kremlin. — Olivier5

The only times I've mentioned Nazis in this thread have been to undermine the Disneyfication of a complex geopolitical situation and in reference to the role their presence plays in Putin's justifications to Russians and his allies.

What relevance would Putin's support of Neo-Nazis in Europe have to either of those points?

It's just another case of this childish notion that we have to pass moral judgement on every fucking thing we say.

It's just another case of this childish notion thst we have to pass moral judgement on every fucking thing we say. — Isaac

We have a duty not to lie, in my view. Do you agree?

We have a duty not to lie, in my view. Do you agree? — Olivier5

Not talking about something which is the case is not lying about it.

Once again, do you agree that we have a duty not to lie?

This is underlined by the fact that Russia telegraphed their recent missile test to the Pentagon as harmless and the Pentagon described it as routine — Baden

But it is routine. Those missiles would show up on defense systems and it would create a Defcon problem and raise tensions unnecessarily if not communicated as a test. There's no "collaboration" between Nato and Russia in such a sense, it's routine to inform about events so that there's no unintentional retaliation that could escalate to full conflict.

Once again, do you agree that we have a duty not to lie? — Olivier5

No. That would lead to famously daft situations such as not lying to the Nazi asking where the Jewish family are hidden. One ought to lie in that case.

Is that why you are lying on this thread? To protect someone?

While you may be enjoying the spectacle, they are dying and their country is being destroyed.
— Baden

I am not enjoying it. Trust me on this. — Olivier5

Can we agree that this is not what an effective defense of a country looks like? At what point does it become a failure to defend? 50% 60% 70% of the infrastructure, the population, what is it?

The Chinese government put a lot of money into that infrastructure, they must be very upset.

The Chinese government put a lot of money into that infrastructure, they must be very upset. — FreeEmotion

Somehow I don't think they'll be writing it off as their loss. One more cost the Ukrainians apparently ought to pay for our schadenfreude.

Can we agree that this is not what an effective defense of a country looks like? At what point does it become a failure to defend? 50% 60% 70% of the infrastructure, the population, what is it? — FreeEmotion

This is not what an effective attack of a country looks like. At what point does it become a failure for the invader? When he invades 5% of the target country at huge loss?

Why have you decided to keep replacing the question at hand with a different question. Have you forgotten how conversation works? Would you like me to draw you a diagram?

Do try and draw a diagram for a good, productive conversation. That could be loads of fun to see what a serial liar like you put in there.

At what point does it become a failure for the invader? — Olivier5

When he withdraws his forces and the country is liberated or when that outcome becomes inevitable, obviously.

When he withdraws his forces and the country is liberated or when that outcome becomes inevitable, obviously. — Baden

Evidently we're not at this stage yet.

"Threatening early nuclear use in a NATO-Russia conflict may be the best way to protect Europe from Putin’s recklessness."
https://warontherocks.com/2022/04/russias-invasion-of-ukraine-and-natos-crisis-of-nuclear-credibility/

Unlike your lies . — Olivier5

US involvement in this war is beyond question. You’re welcome to continue on with delusions.