His superman doesn’t represent a more advanced intelligence but the awareness of self as self overcoming. Self-overcoming is the endless replacement of older values by new values. The new values aren’t ‘better’ than the older ones, they’re just different. — Joshs

I have limited interest in Nietzsche, but this accords with my understanding. My only question is why bother with this overcoming (and endless change) if there are no improvements and no foundational narrative underpinning the 'journey'?

My only question is why bother with this overcoming (and endless change) if there are no improvements and no foundational narrative underpinning the 'journey'? — Tom Storm

Foundations won’t get you where you want to
go in terms of improving your understanding of and relationships with other people and yourself. They will
just assure that you will be locked into old ways of thinking . One can instead strive to construe more intimately intercorrelational ways of interpreting the world, which doesn’t rely on the fixity of precious foundations. In fact , the letting go of those foundations is necessary in order to free up new possibilities. It is hard at first blush to see how Nietzsche allows for any notion of progress or development, but I suggest that for him one’s previous history of valuations prepares one to move more and more fluidly through new channels of construing, even as one transforms those ‘foundations’ in process.

After all, what we call ‘knowledge’ is really nothing but this fluid anticipative embrace of new events.

Thanks - it just seems the obvious question to pose. Personally I am not a spear carrier for 'foundations'.

It is hard at first blush to see how Nietzsche allows for any notion of progress or development, but I suggest that for him one’s previous history of valuations prepares one to move more and more fluidly through new channels of construing, even as one transforms those ‘foundations’ in process. — Joshs

I'm not sure I understand why FN says it is worth the trouble to seek self-overcoming and new value systems.

I wonder too if there is a foundational core at the center of the idea of overcoming in the first place - an implication that a self can be assessed/understood in order to be transcended, which also sounds suspiciously like a journey built around a kind of measurement system.

Freddy Mercury overcome himself, his Parsi heritage, sexuality, "shy and retiring" personality, and grew as a performer at least until his break with Queen, cultivating an aristocratic image that had the band described as "fascist rock" in Rolling Stone. He lived in this world and forced his own values on others.

SO choose between Freddy and Putin for you Übermensch.

Both have the necessary sociopathic self-absorption and contempt for the effects their actions have on others.

You make it sound like a bad thing... :razz:

I wanted to ask you earlier what you thought of Nietzsche.

Fascinated disgust?

I am not sure that Freddie Mercury was influenced by Nietzsche, but Jim Morrison was, for better or worse. Of course, it was a specific interpretation of Nietzsche and it may have been slanted rather than a thorough reading of his work. In a way, Jim Morrison's references to Nietzsche, as well as Colin Wilson's discussion in 'The Outsider' brought his writings into popular culture or subculture and Nietszche became a romantic antihero.

I do wonder if Nietzsche did really think that the animal side of human nature was something to be ashamed of because that would be more consistent with religious perspectives, or of Plato's distinction between the higher and lower self.

I am not sure that Freddie Mercury was influenced by Nietzsche, — Jack Cummins

Influenced? The Blond Beast does not think, the Blond Beast acts. That you are here, in this forum, ensures that you will never be the Übermensch.

Morrison was a wannabe Jagger.

It is likely that the idea of enhancements of transhumanism was very far from the scope of Nietzsche's thought. He had more in common with literary traditions and classical philosophy. The world he was writing in was such a different perspective that it probably needs to be interpreted in that context, because seeing it in the chaotic climate of the twentieth first century probably gives rise to distortions.

D Marsh wrote: 'We Will Rock You "is a marching order: you will not rock us, we will rock you. Indeed, Queen may be the first truly fascist rock band."'

As far as I know, that is the whole case for the prosecution. Marsh did not seem to recognise the reference to the Czech Christmas lullaby - we will rock you, rock you, rock you etc
https://www.hymnsandcarolsofchristmas.com/Hymns_and_Carols/rocking_carol-2.htm

FM wasn't a fascist, he was a diva. It's not marching, it's prancing. Mein Kamp. So I submit m'lud.

The question may be whether Nietzsche himself would have been more in place on a philosophy forum or as a rock'n'roll star. He probably would not have been at ease on either and the worse thought is that if such a person existed in the twentieth first century they may be misunderstood completely, or ended up in a remote academic group or as a writer of literary fiction. There are probably not going to be any equivalent figures in the present times in philosophy circles.

Morrison was a wannabe Jagger. — Banno

You could leave out the Jagger bit...

:wink:

Isn't it odd that American rock is so...derivative; pale imitations of their British overlords. Even the brilliance of Hendrix had to go to London to be recognised. Yanks treat of the Beach Boys as their equivalent of the Beatles... the Beach Boys! Christ, it's pathetic.

Exactly!

Yeah, wtf?! :sweat:

Fascinated disgust? — Banno

Would the Freddy fans say that this is because you're enslaved by modernist foundationalism?

A friend of my mums was a close colleague of Carl Jung's - I asked him about FN on the basis that I though Jung was FN friendly. He described Nietzsche as a 'deplorable teenager'.

Isn't it odd that American rock is so...derivative; pale imitations of their British overlords. — Banno

I don't listen to rock often but when I do it's Cream and the Stones over others.

Nietzsche fulminated too much to be what he most desired; that very act prevented him from achieving perfection. If he were around now, he'd be living in the blue light of a screen in his Mum's basement, pale and angry. Probably posting anti-vax memes.

An incel.

He described Nietzsche as a 'deplorable teenager'. — Tom Storm

Yes! Philosophy for adolescent failures.

Folk are not going to like this thread when they notice it.

A friend of my mums was a close colleague of Carl Jung's - I asked him about FN on the basis that I though Jung was FN friendly. He described Nietzsche as a 'deplorable teenager'. — Tom Storm

I suspect there are far more people influenced by Nietzsche than Jung.

Morrison was a wannabe Jagger. — Banno

Sinatra was Morrison's favorite singer. "Jagger"? No. :lol:

I suspect there are far more people influenced by Nietzsche than Jung. — Jackson

Even if that were true (and I am no Jung enthusiast) it has no impact on the quote.

Even if that were true (and I am no Jung enthusiast) it has no impact on the quote. — Tom Storm

Oh.

I suspect there are far more people influenced by Nietzsche than Jung.

I think it would be true, for the simple reason that there are far more unfulfilled adolescent males of all ages than folk with wit, intelligence and a desire to understand.

Perhaps if Nietzsche was around today he would get so carried away on the forum and get banned.

Yes, he lacked the social skills needed to keep a job, or a friendship.

I think it would be true, for the simple reason that there are far more unfulfilled adolescent males of all ages than folk with wit, intelligence and a desire to understand. — Banno

Like, wow. Yeah.

Yes, he lacked the social skills needed to keep a job, or a friendship. — Banno

He was a professor of philology.