Part of the issue about Nietzsche's ideas being used by the Nazis says a lot about the way human thinking was going, especially in the early twentieth century. Neither Nietzsche's ideas or the Nazis ideas can be seen in isolation but were part of the developments of abstraction and involved a certain amount of inflation of ego consciousness..

One book which I read a long time ago was ' Glamour' by Alice Bailey and she spoke of the way that Hitler's ideas were based on glamour, which involved a wish to be rid of evil. This was projected onto those who were seen to be as inferior, who Hitler wished to destroy in reaching for the highest limits. Hitler himself was influenced by theosophy which spoke of different root races.

It is easy to see how the Nazis were able to draw on Nietzsche's idea of the transvaluation of values. Jung was more directly involved in developments in Nazi Germany because he was working there. He did speak of dangerous development in ideas being developed by some German thinkers, but he was also swept up in this too because he made generalisations about race and failed to speak out about the Nazi movement at the time, and did give therapy to Nazis.

Yesterday, when writing on the thread I was thinking about how the idea of the superman relates to the idea of Satan, as the ultimate rebel. The complexity of it also relates to the idea of Lucifer, who was the figure who was the lord of light initially. Even though Nietzsche's ideas come from a critique of Christianity, the philosophy does go back to the symbolic drama between good and evil.

The p0m0 sophists, it seems to me, are deliberately, perhaps ironically, not saying anything (i.e. nihilistic relativism) whereas Freddy Z 'internally critiques' what we (e.g. philosophers, priests, politicians) say as, in effect, trojan horses full of ulterior motives (i.e. cynical pragmatism). Yes, he is a "forerunner" but not, IMO, of the p0m0 which follows in Zarathustra's wake. "Beware, lest a statue slay you!" :smirk:

Jagger wanted to be Satan. Morrison wanted to be Jesus. — Joshs

I've always seen Morrison striving to be shaman and Jagger as an accomplished burlesque performer.

Write with blood' does suggest the Nietzschian path to be more about the call of being a writer than anything else. — Jack Cummins

Note the title of the chapter is not "Writing" but "Reading and Writing". He is in part addressing writers with regard to readers -

He who knoweth the reader, doeth nothing more for the reader. — Thus Spake Zarathustra, Chapter 7, “Reading and Writing”

But he is also addressing the reader with regard to those who write with blood, that is, spirit. Such writers do nothing more for the reader. It is up to the reader to make the unfamiliar spirit his own. Nietzsche more than anyone else was instrumental in the revival of the art of reading what is between the lines

The subtitle of Thus Spoke Zarathustra is "A Book for All and None". Above all, Nietzsche is a philosopher addressing the philosopher of the future, one who is yet to be.

As to a "Nietzschean path":

This—is now MY way,—where is yours?” Thus did I answer those who asked me “the way.” For THE way—it doth not exist! — Zarathustra, The Spirit of Gravity

Nietzsche more than anyone else was instrumental in the revival of the art of reading what is between the lines — Fooloso4

:100:

As to a "Nietzschean path":

"This—is now MY way,—where is yours?” Thus did I answer those who asked me “the way.” For THE way—it doth not exist!"
— Zarathustra, The Spirit of Gravity

:fire:

Jagger wanted to be Satan. Morrison wanted to be Jesus.
— Joshs
I've always seen Morrison striving to be shaman and Jagger as an accomplished burlesque performer. — 180 Proof

That’s even better.

To translate Freddy's famous phrase, it means "beyond religious (priestly) morality" — 180 Proof

I think this is right, but should be seen within the larger problem of history. What is properly regarded as good or evil is historically contingent. At one historical stage the morality he sees as unhealthy was a means to man's self-overcoming, but it is no longer so.

This a a problem he addresses in "On the Use and Abuse of History" from Untimely Meditations. He addresses the problem of nihilism. Those who think he was a nihilist should read this. It is the reason the "child" is necessary for the three metamorphoses of the spirit in Zarathustra. If what is called "good" today was at some earlier time "bad" and may at some future time be called "bad", if, in other words, there is no universal, fixed and unchanging transcendent good and evil than this can lead to nihilism. Nihilism, the "sacred no" must be followed by a "sacred yes", but this is only possible if there is a kind of deliberate historical forgetfulness, a new innocence.

This, of course, should not be taken literally. The trope is one of Nietzsche's "inversions" of the innocence of the child in Christianity:

And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. — Matthew 18:3

For mainstream Christianity this is impossible. Following Paul, it is not man who changes but man who is changed. But the metamorphoses of the spirit are not dependent on some divine force outside oneself.

It's gotta be admitted that Jagger went low on Negritta and high on Fool to Cry. Never heared Jimbo going high. On voice, that is. "Let's start a religion". Horse latitudes. Never understood that one. But it's wide.

Was Christ just hanging around? Was he an eternalist? Did only he had a torch in the block universe? How could god have constructed it? Why did Nietzsche said God was dead? Did he believe in God and just was man enough to declare him dead? I wonder if he had the guts to yell this at Central Square in Teheran. "God is death, BUT ALLAH AKHBAR!"

because he turns the idea of romanticism upside down to create a new romanticism — Jack Cummins

SO... this?



(Edit: I hadn't noticed the Weeping Angels before...)

“It shook me to the core.” — Joshs

So he went and recorded one album with Duane Allmann. That was enough to shake him out of it. I'll grant you Dylan, Jefferson Airplane and Grateful Dead, and raise you Led Zeppelin, Marc Bolan and Sex Pistols.

I think you should be looking in Chicago and Motown for your best.

Jagger wanted to be Satan. Morrison wanted to be Jesus. — Joshs

...and Jesus wanted to be Satan but his Dad said "No".

...and Jesus wanted to be Satan but his Dad said "No". — Banno

And Jesus (in Mathew 4 1-11) is tempted by Satan. 'Kid, I'll give you anything if you worship me...' Very strange story given Jesus is God... what would God want with kingdoms when he created everything and is already omnipotent and impotent when it comes to the worship of others?

Oh boy.. A thread that was opened about exploring the meaning of the "Ubermensch" concept ended up as a shithole.
One of the greatest and most influential deep thinkers of all time is condemned by some TPF wannabe-"experts" as "adolescent", "useless" etc etc.
As if they speak for their neighbor living next door.

You don't know what to do. To laugh or cry??Probably they have achieved much greater things to their life than poor, mad, stupid Nietzsche,who only got in the pantheon of Philosophers by luck maybe for them.

I have no problem someone not liking Nietzsche or what he wrote. But treating such a great mind as if he is a "0" it's just a sign of our times.. Cancel everything except our shitself. Our Holy shit self.

P. S. Morrison?? Mercury? Wtf?!?

Cool - @Banno said someone like you would show up... he's now a prophet.

Fear not, dimo, that which does not cancel Nietzsche makes him grow stronger. :strong:

Thus spoke Banno?? Glorious. Maybe he predicted "The Cancelmensch" also. Not sure though, haven't studied all of his writings yet.

:wink: .

In fact minds like Nietzsche are simply uncancelable. And despite the efforts will remain that way.

One of the greatest and most influential deep thinkers of all time is condemned by some TPF wannabe-"experts" — dimosthenis9

Ah, don't apologise; I'm used to it. Goes with the territory.

Yeah, I believe you. You do seem pretty familiar with the territory of arrogance and immodesty.

Jokes aside, Mercury does satisfy all the criteria.

Criteria as to be considered what Nietzsche meant by "Ubermensch"?

Yep.

I see only similarity in the way that Mercury ignored social stereotypes, not fearing to expose himself in front of the public and making a way for homosexuals as to gain more acceptance into their societies.

From what I have read about the other aspects of his life(of course I wasn't his buddy as to know for sure) , he didn't seem that spiritual evolved as Nietzsche suggested. I would consider him as a little step towards "Ubermensch" but by far not "Ubermensch" himself.

"spiritual evolved" — dimosthenis9

?

@Jack Cummins The basis of it is not that complicated really. That e taken on by many people in different ways is just part of a human’s will to own something expressed by another.

Nietzsche’s concern was how humanity would ‘replace’ religion. Layered within this are many questions like how do we act, why do we act, what do we need/want and we crave for in our inner most core (what we will)?

My view - related to this topic - is that we are all aware that we are more than what we are. Facing up to that and fully realising it is what life is about. The End.

Yeah. What else do you think Nietzsche meant with Ubermensch? 3 legs and 2 heads? Spiritual not with any metaphysical or theological meaning of course. But mindfulness.

Spiritual not with any metaphysical or theological meaning of course. But mindfulness. — dimosthenis9

Tell me more.

Nietzsche considered spiritual development as the next step in human evolution. He saw great potential in mind abilities and what humans could achieve with that. A development that could come via knowledge and constant questioning our personal beliefs. A constant internal hard fight of growing ourselves. Not via religion or any other metaphysical superstitions.

That way spirit could overcome our animal nature. Tame our "low" instincts and make us humans something greater than just an "animal with better mind" than monkey.
That way we could re-evaluate our systems, our moral values, our idiot social stereotypes etc. Destroying them and rebuilding them all over.

That is Ubermensch for Nietzsche(in my interpretation at least) . A higher spiritual version of human. The next level in humankind that mind could drive us.
Asking me, we are not even yet "Mensch". So let's become first that, and then we could consider about "Ubermensch".