On The Origins of Prayer

Deletedmemberzc

Imagine a mortally wounded near-human beast grunting and screeching for help in the wilderness. No organism answers. The beast continues to grunt and screech for help until its death. It is calling to specific near-human beast-friends while entertaining an abstract vision of rescue or salvation. At the outset of its sufferings, we might say it is in every sense simply calling to its beast-friends. As time unwinds and death approaches, the abstract vision (again, imagine) of rescue or salvation begins to dominate. The mind of the beast begins to transition from "help, friend X, friend Y, or friend Z!" to "help, any friend!" to "help, any creature!" to "help, anything at all!" as the beast and its thought process grow more and more desperate.

Considering the climax of this process: Is the cry of the beast a prayer?

If the cry of the beast is no prayer what can we do to it to make it a prayer?

Agent Smith

Cries of pain are usually high-pitched (yelping dogs) and, from what I know, infants of most animals tend to vocalize in that acoustic frequency range. Why? Beats me! Are our cries meant to summon random (over)protective parents (mother bears/tigers/etc.) who're within earshot to our aid or to cause confusion in the predator's mind, opening up a window of opportunity for escape?

An interesting question.

L'éléphant

Considering the climax of this process: Is the cry of the beast a prayer? — ZzzoneiroCosm

No. The instinct is kicking in -- it's an automatic response to a threat or injury.

If the cry of the beast is no prayer what can we do to it to make it a prayer? — ZzzoneiroCosm

When the beast no longer thinks it's in control of the situation and wishes for a chance.

I like sushi

↪ZzzoneiroCosm

The origin is probably little more than a physical craving for something and some belief that it can be obtained. Hunger/Thirst is likely the ‘first’ prayer to arise in a conscious being that had a reasonable enough appreciation of its place in an environment.

Haglund

↪I like sushi

"Oh father in heaven, give us our daily bread!"

180 Proof

↪I like sushi

:up: The origin of prayer could be the toddler's habit of her needy, pre-linguistic 'call' for her mother's tit and the soothing 'response' from her mother as she suckles.

I like sushi

↪180 Proof

Possibly. The general view as the concept of god growing from a ‘loss of parental guidance’ thingy theory is kind of along those lines too. I don’t buy that completely, but it likely plays a part in human psychology.

Haglund

The origin of prayer could be the toddler's habit of her needy, pre-linguistic 'call' for her mother's tit and the soothing 'response' from her mother as the she suckles. — 180 Proof

:lol: Is prayer basically a cultured crave for tit and milk? Gotta remember that one in church! I'll put an extra dime in the basket!

Deletedmemberzc

The origin is probably little more than a physical craving for something and some belief that it can be obtained. Hunger/Thirst is likely the ‘first’ prayer to arise in a conscious being that had a reasonable enough appreciation of its place in an environment. — I like sushi

↪180 Proof

So we might say that prayer qua hunger is first directed toward an absence. "I'm having an unpleasant feeling! I feel something is lacking! I cry out to X that that something might come!"

As the mother comes to be seen as an answer to the prayer of hunger - as mother takes the place of X or absence - the prayer begins to take the form of basic human communication.

Agent Smith

The origin of prayer could be the toddler's habit of her needy, pre-linguistic 'call' for her mother's tit and the soothing 'response' from her mother as the she suckles. — 180 Proof

You mean to say God's simply sublimated boob fetish? :scream: :lol:

Yahweh $\downarrow$

SpaceDweller

origin of prayer is subject to development of religion, specifically early beliefs and folklore beliefs.

recall that in ancient Israel, before Jews conquered promised lands, they were faced with tribes who sent their children into fire to please pagan gods.

In todays mexico, early tribes sacrificed people or a regular basis because belief was, if they don't do so it will be end of sunlight and thus end of the world.

These early rituals become too harsh to bear any longer at some point (which is evident and not new), therefore there was the need to please gods in less painful way, and the prayer was born.

basically I think prayer was replaced with blood sacrifice at some point because it would be unusual to quit blood sacrifice without proper replacement, it would mean the end of beliefs and religion.

180 Proof

↪Agent Smith

:rofl: :pray: A-men!

Paulm12

↪ZzzoneiroCosm

Would prayer and meditation necessarily have different origins? Studies suggest both reduce stress, increase forgiveness, increase self-control, etc. I personally see it as meditation being the east's "discovery" of whatever it is and prayer being the west's.
As a result, perhaps animals do "pray," even if they don't have a concept of God/gods. I think it depends if prayer needs an idea of "god" or the idea of a reciever.

I like sushi

↪ZzzoneiroCosm

In terms of self awareness, simply posing a question to ourselves in our head could be considered ‘a prayer’ as we ask ourselves what to do. Often answers come to us when our thoughts are redirected towards other items.

It is does not take much to see that there is a connection between asking a question (or crying our for an answer) and said question/call being answered by some unseen force within.

A human’s sense of authorship shifts and changes quite a lot. Some people even believe we are just ‘passengers’ of a sort and that the claim to authorship is lain on after the said events.

Agent Smith

Is it possible for something to have no effect? Here's an example of one: I push against the Great Wall of China. Nothing happens! The force I exerted didn't have any effect.

However, my intuition revolts, for some unknown reasons, against this easily demonstrable factoid. Something in me tells me that everything has an effect, should have an effect.

On that view, walking under a ladder or breaking a mirror or wearing a lucky tie, and so on, all, should produce an effect, desirable/undesirable is an open question. As herein relevant, prayer is a bona fide cause of misery/joy/something else.

Note, prayer is, bottom line, telekinesis/psychokinesis, matter being directly influenced by (good/bad) thoughts (prayer) i.e. shortcircuiting normal channels of affecting matter (contact). Spooky action at a distance in other words!

Wayfarer

↪ZzzoneiroCosm

You might like this article on Aeon https://aeon.co/essays/how-trance-states-forged-human-society-through-transcendence

Mark Vernon is a writer I have a lot of time for. Very intelligent analyst of cross-cultural and trans-historical sources of spirituality.

Incidentally I didn’t like the suggestion in the OP at all, because it’s Darwinian. Darwinian theory is crap at this kind of thing.

Haglund

↪Wayfarer

What I often wonder is how anthropologist consider the stuff they consider in their study. Do they consider the worlds the cultural members live in as real worlds, or merely as study objects? Interesting stuff, but out of touch with reality? I remember reading Florinda Donner's story and was disappointed when reading she made it up. But at the same time she showed how it should be.

Wayfarer

Do they consider the worlds the cultural members live in as real worlds, or merely as study objects? — Haglund

Have you done any units in it? I did a couple of years of anthropology and found it utterly fascinating. Agustin Fuentes seems fascinating. (So many books, so little time.) Anthropology has this way of being able to transcend all the usual disciplinary boundary stuff and open up wholly new perspectives on humanity. So, of course if they're worth their salt, they will reveal those perspectives.

EFyeLRnXYAITVIQ?format=jpg&name=900x900

Haglund

↪Wayfarer

Haha! Great cartoon! :up:

Haglund

Agustin Fuentes seems nice:

"A wide-ranging argument by a renowned anthropologist that the capacity to believe is what makes us human Why are so many humans religious? Why do we daydream, imagine, and hope?"

The capacity is human indeed. Does he think that that's an indication for the reality of gods? And our praying to them? Or is it seen as a resort to something when being unable to actually improve oneself?

Wayfarer

↪Haglund

well, he’s written a book on it……

Haglund

↪Wayfarer

Yes indeed. Florinda Donner wrote a great story about one particular small group of people in the rainforest. She seemed to have become one of them. She saw a member killing a baby with a stick. The baby was kept with the face down until the stick was pushed against it's back and made it crack. She didn't like it but the members had no problem doing it. They would be punished if they did that here, in the western world, which nowadays is the whole world.

I'm curious if Agustin thinks the world he describes is real, i.e., religion referring to real gods.

Deletedmemberzc

You might like this article on Aeon — Wayfarer

Thanks :smile:

Bret Bernhoft

IMO, prayer of any kind is both a meditation and a magickal act. This implies that such behaviors are (probably, essentially) automatic for a majority of humanity. Where does "prayer" comes from? It comes from our innate humanity. It is also important to point out that prayer is not unique to humans. What we're referring to here is a universal language.

As to what is being communicated through this universal, telepathic language is up to the individual. That much is a choice.

SpaceDweller

I personally see it as meditation being the east's "discovery" of whatever it is and prayer being the west's. — Paulm12

In wester way of life (that is, not meditation life) there is thing called "contemplation"

Agent Smith

Possibly. The general view as the concept of god growing from a ‘loss of parental guidance’ thingy theory is kind of along those lines too. I don’t buy that completely, but it likely plays a part in human psychology. — I like sushi

The origin of prayer could be the toddler's habit of her needy, pre-linguistic 'call' for her mother's tit and the soothing 'response' from her mother as she suckles. — 180 Proof

To both of you

If human neoteny is a fact, no one has seen an adult human!

We could be juvenile chimps for all we know. We share 99.9% of our DNA. :rofl:

Agent Smith will return with more disturbing thoughts...

:smile:

Hillary

↪Agent Smith

I've still a pair of gills dangling around in agony...

Hillary

The general view as the concept of god growing from a ‘loss of parental guidance’ — I like sushi

Is that the "general" view? God being a mental replacement of failed parenthood? Weird rationalization...

Agent Smith

I've still a pair of gills dangling around in agony... — Hillary

:chin: Anaximander's fish idea turned out to be true.

Hillary

↪Agent Smith

He had a fish idea?

Hillary

In wester way of life (that is, not meditation life) there is thing called "contemplation" — SpaceDweller

Contemplation=meditation?

On The Origins of Prayer

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