• Individualist Possibilist
    5
    Good night, guys. I need some help to understand some philosophical topics that are complex and hard to find about. And actually, it is also very important and useful in my job, in a public health service.

    The point is, I live in a very religious zone. Too many evangelicals, and some fanatical enough to deny some basic points about public health. (And it is not even about COVID).

    A good example is when we are talking about natural disasters prevention and some of those religious guys say that "actually we can do nothing about this, only God can save us", and that "only God can protect us and avoid disasters", and so on. And this is what I hear since years and years ago.

    I dont deny, and I am not even an atheist. I am spiritual, but in a more agnostic and philosophical way. And of course, actually there are many atheists and non-evangelical persons who are dogmatics in many topics as well.

    But since I study about philosophies, I (and some other guys who are not religious and not atheists as well) try to elaborate some arguments to deal with some radical religious topics. But I will not talk too much details about such talks now.

    The point is that, searching more about such philosophical topics through the internet, our conclusion is that actually it is not Gods, supernatural beings, and not even science or technologies that we must seek to solve our problems or "save us". It is actually the "powers" that such things have. (But only if they really have such powers, of course).

    And when we say about "power", we are talking about a "skill", "possibility", "ability" that a thing has, to do something.

    In a practical exemple that we use in health topics for instance is that if you have cancer, all that you wish is to find something that has power to cure cancer. No matter if such power will come from gods, science, magic or some mysterious source. What really matter after all is the "power" to cure cancer.

    And this basic topic about powers can even be extended to a very wide metaphysical philosophy actually, to the point that we can use to deal with religious matters, just like some philosophers used to do in ancient Greece and Rome, since everything that exist have powers. And even in epistemological and ethical topics, to decide what is true or false, right or wrong, are related to power, since those who have Power enough can decide what is right or wrong, and even what is true or false, and so on.

    I remember that I found those good points about such topic in some Youtube videos years ago, from some guys talking about Aristotle, Possibilism, Possible Worlds, meaning of Power and Possibility, and so on.

    So the question is, if some one here know who are these guys, please, post their videos here, because I dont remember who they are, since I watched them many years ago. Or if you know something about such topics related to Possibilism, tell me what you know that we could use to deal with extreme religious talks. And I will talk more about it later to explain more points too.
  • Angelo Cannata
    354
    I don't think that power is a good way to find what we need: God has power to destroy all the evil in the world, but he doesn't do this. Society, governments, have power to protect the planet, but they don't protect it. Medicines that are very good frequently reveal uneffective. In other words, potentiality or possibility don't guarantee at all that something will happen, so, what's the point of relying so much on power?
  • universeness
    6.3k
    I would recommend you watch the youtube debates between Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, Matt Dillahunty and others, against prominent theists.
    I would also recommend you watch some of the youtube phone-in recordings posted by 'the athiest experience,' and Matt Dillahunty, such as:



    or/and:



    There are also many many educational vids/lectures on all of the greek philosophers and almost every other philosopher since. Just do a youtube search using the name of any philosopher you wish and you should get quite a bit of material on them.
  • Haglund
    802


    Beware of the Watchtower material @universeness is offering. He tries to pray on everyone and converse everyone to atheism. His tactics are suspicious... Be warned!
  • Haglund
    802
    In a practical exemple that we use in health topics for instance is that if you have cancer, all that you wish is to find something that has power to cure cancer. No matter if such power will come from gods, science, magic or some mysterious source. What really matter after all is the "power" to cure cancer.Individualist Possibilist

    There was a debate about an actress refusing established medical treatment of cancer. Sylvia Millecam.

    The books of Wilhelm Reich, inventor of the orgone accumulator in the fight against cancer, were all burnt in New York, in the nineteen fifties.
  • universeness
    6.3k
    Beware of the Watchtower materialHaglund

    A polytheist naming a theist magazine (Jehovah's witnesses) to warn against the atheist viewpoint?
    Go figure? :rofl:
  • Haglund
    802


    "The Atheist Experience" Hellijuah!
  • Individualist Possibilist
    5


    The point is that if we have powers enough, we at least have the option to understand and solve our problems, even if we dont want to solve them.

    And God, society, governments, medicines, really have such powers? Or we just think that they have? Or maybe they have just some potentials, but they have not all "ingredients" to really put their powers to "work" completely.

    A blacksmith has the power to transform a metal into a sword, for instance. He really has knowledge and skills to do it. But if one day all the metal in the world disappear completely, we can say that the same blacksmith still will have his powers to transform a metal into a sword, but such powers will be only a potential that can't become an actuality anymore, since there is no metal anymore.

    And of course, we can not forget that there are "evil powers" too. Many of our problems can not be solved just because there are powers that are in the opposite pole. Scientists can create a medicine that has the power to cure a virus, but if such virus has enough power to create new mutations, to adapt and to evolve into new variants, then we can see a real polarised "conflict of potentials". Maybe we can use our current COVID situation as an example, but we can see it everywhere actually in natural world, since evolution of all species and natural phenomenas are a kind of conflict of powers.
  • Individualist Possibilist
    5


    Eh. Actually I already have seen some videos from that Atheist Experience channel. And of course, I already used many points elaborated by atheists to confront christian points. But the problems are, firstly, I am not exactly an atheist anymore, then I have to use such arguments in a limited way.

    And secondly is that many real atheists already failed to convince religious persons that maybe their God will not solve our problems. If you already tried to do it, you know the point. I think that it is because Atheism have some limitations to be used in practical life and to give emotional relief to persons when they are in need, since Atheism is just an idea that Gods dont exist, and just this.

    And I should make you know that I live in Brazil, where atheists are not so common, at least not openly. According to the last national census, there are already many non-religious here, but most of them are not exactly atheists, just like me. And many people here dont agree with atheism, and when in need they look for some evangelical church too, for instance. And since I am a health worker, I must do my job based on science but I can not confront their faith in a way that could affect such persons negatively. So I prefer to use simple philosophic arguments that can be a middle way between science and faith.

    And we have more success to "convert" christians and other religious persons if we also use an emotionally affirmative and practical philosophy, something like ancient Greek and Romans philosophers used to do in the past, like Stoicism, Epicureanism or Pyrrhonism, where Gods could exist, but they were not the main point of such philosophies. And this is where we can see the importance of Powers as a better central metaphysical point, since Powers are also "abstract forces" that can be present everywhere, in Gods, demons, humans, animals, nature, technologies, tools and even in abstract objects.

    And of course, powers are also practical elements that can be used in our daily life, since we can only do something or solve our problems if we find enough power to solve them. Because they are elements that can transform "potentiality into actuality", as Aristotle elaborated in his Metaphyics book. So it can really make a more practical philosophy, as the Ancient Greek-Roman philosophies, and that can be used in our daily situations, as I use in my job.

    Of course we realize that there are many points that could be improved, for instance in Epistemology and Ethics, and even the need for congregation that many people look for, to understand more about the ideas and to feel as a part of a comunity, but it can just be solved futurely. The main point now is that I wish to find those videos about Aristotle and Possibilism again to elaborate better my points, since there are already some christians now that really wish more debates against me. :^D
  • Philosophim
    2.6k
    You could use an old story I've heard Christian's use.

    A person is in their home when a neighbor walks by and tells them them the person in their house needs to leave. The house owner says, "Don't worry, God will save me."

    Later, the flood hits, and the floor is flooded. A boat comes by and offers the house owner a trip out. The house owner replies, "Don't worry, God will save me."

    The flood gets even worse and the owner can now only sit on their roof and wait. A helicopter flies by and offers a rope ladder to climb aboard. The house owner shouts, "Don't worry, God will save me!"

    The flood over takes the house and the owner dies. When the owner arrives in heaven and meets God he states, "God, I prayed that you would save me from the flood, but you didn't stop it!"

    God replies, "I sent you a neighbor, a boat, and a helicopter, what more did you want?!"

    Generally, people don't want deep philosophical discussions. Its why apologetics works so well. Use the appropriate manner of speech with your audience, and you'll be more likely to convince them.
  • Tom Storm
    9.1k
    The point is that, searching more about such philosophical topics through the internet, our conclusion is that actually it is not Gods, supernatural beings, and not even science or technologies that we must seek to solve our problems or "save us". It is actually the "powers" that such things have. (But only if they really have such powers, of course).

    And when we say about "power", we are talking about a "skill", "possibility", "ability" that a thing has, to do something.
    Individualist Possibilist

    I'm not sure I understand what your argument is. Do you mean that humans with specific skills that are evidence based will have the capacity to resolve most of our problems? Is this not just a complex way to privilege a scientific approach? The use of the word 'power' doesn't really fit as I see it. There are too many resonances of super powers or magic powers. And from a more post-modern angle, it sounds like a cribbed version of Foucault.
  • Hillary
    1.9k
    I think you're right that it's the powers that matter. Had you been born in ancient Greece, you maybe invoked Athena's wisdom or the oracle. In the middle age era you maybe invoked God or even the devil. Had you been born in an Indian tribe, a visit to the shaman might have done the trick. In the modern day era most of us naturally visit the science-based doctors. Which is based on a western approach to knowledge. All have their advantages and disadvantages I guess.
  • Individualist Possibilist
    5



    Sure. This is also a well known story here where I live. This is a good example to be used as well. It does not focus on powers explicity but it is openly pragmatical.



    Something like this, really. The difference is that today we know that the ancient Gods, oracles and shamans did not have really powers to do supernatural acts. Their powers was more coming from psychological influences in the believers. Science-based powers are considered to be really more physical and practical. But of course, as you said, actually there are pros and cons in both sides.



    This is more a grammatical matter. The word "power" come from Latin language "potere". The Greek word used by Aristotle was "dunamis", but both words can be translated today to "power" (and that is a more practical word currently):

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunamis_(disambiguation)

    "Dunamis (Ancient Greek: δύναμις) is a Greek philosophical concept meaning "power", "potential" or "ability", and is central to the Aristotelian idea of potentiality and actuality".

    So a scientific power of a technology or a magical power of a superhero are powers in their own way, an ability or capacity that a thing has to do or to influence something, the difference in this case is if such power is present in our "actual world" or just in a "possible world" (as a ficction story).

    And about if humans with specific skills that are evidence-based would have the capacity to resolve most of our problem, yes, it is a possibility, but it is not a complex way to privilege a scientific approach.

    Especially because power can be also used as a wider metaphysical reference for those who also believe in the possibility of supernatural, abstract, idealist, alternative or unidentified realities, not only scientific, that is based only in materialist/physicalist metaphysics of our physical world.

    And secondly, I use this idea to deal with people who believe mostly in God than in Science. So in this practical situation, convince a people who believe in God simply to stop to believe in God and start to believe only in Science is not so easy. It would be a huge change of worldview. So focusing on Power is a "middle way", since it is a element that Science and God (theorically) have in common, powers to solve our problems. It makes easier to turn a religious person who dont know too much about science into a more "pragmatical" person.

    But these are only my incomplete theories, based on what what read about such topic and my own limited experiences. So I will keep my search for those videos to remember more points to better answer such questions.
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