The so-called "progressive change" you want is nothing but a regressive change to the days in which Western intervention could simply call the shots as and when it likes. Those days are over. And thank God.
The slow death of Western empire - and we are living through it now - — Streetlight
By progressive change, I mean live alongside their neighbours peacefully. — Punshhh
Western intervention hasn’t worked for 40yrs or so. — Punshhh
I note, that this is usually against the wishes, or agreement of the peoples of these states. — Punshhh
The US abandoned their proxy wars with Russia before the end of the Cold War and the collapse of the USSR. — Punshhh
If they wanted to subjugate Russia, they would have done it long before now, when Russia was weak. — Punshhh
The social collapse in such areas of the US is breathtaking. — Punshhh
Describe an alternative then. — Punshhh
The end of states and the reign of private property. But this is not quite the thread for that. — Streetlight
Your empire is now like a tyranny: it may have been wrong to take it; it is certainly dangerous to let it go. Pericles
J. William FulbrightThe price of empire is America's soul, and that price is too high.
So a failed attempt in the 1990’s by the US to somehow control Russia, is evidence of an overarching US expansionism. I’m not convinced I’m afraid. — Punshhh
I don’t disagree with your historical insights apart from the glaring omission of the Norman conquest and colonisation of England. Who’s descendants, still totally in control of the population, did the global empire building you refer to. — Punshhh
Also your conflation of geopolitical issues with the spread of the capitalist economic system confuses the issue at hand. One might as well say that Britain is conquering the world through spreading the adoption of the English language globally. — Punshhh
The zones of influence assigned to each government shall be as follows: The English zone: The Cossack territories, the territory of the Caucasus, Armenia, Georgia, Kurdistan. The French zone: Bessarabia, the Ukraine, the Crimea … ‘
Maybe nations are variably predatory towards different nations in different time periods, depending on their culture, norms, leadership, internal politics, economic situation, etc.? — Count Timothy von Icarus
France, of course, will be required to send at least half of it's GDP split proportionally among among Haiti, Algeria, Morocco, Tunisia, Vietnam, Congo and a bunch of others for the next say, century or so. Also all the stolen colonial art in the Lourve and elsewhere is gonna have to be returned, naturally. — Streetlight
Moscow and other Russian Duchies fell under Mongol control. And Muscovy worked for the Mongols to reinforce it's position:Similarly, Russia became an empire because it was forced to defend itself against attacks by the Mongols and other Central Asian invaders. — Apollodorus
The major turning point surfaced in 1327 when the populace of Tver started to rise in rebellion. Seeing this as an opportunity to please the khan of his Mongol overlords, Prince Ivan I of Moscow took a huge Tatar contingent and quashed the rebellion in Tver, thereby restoring order in that city and winning the favor of the khan. For his show of loyalty, Ivan I was also granted the iarlyk and with this Moscow took yet another step towards prominence and power. Soon the princes of Moscow took over the responsibilities of collecting taxes throughout the land (and in doing so, taking part of these taxes for themselves) and eventually the Mongols gave this responsibility solely to Moscow and ended the practice of sending their own tax collectors.
Do note the ribbon pattern of Saint George in the "Z". It's now commonly used to commerate WW2 and the Victory Day, even if the historical order of Saint George is from the 18th Century.Here is an updated version at a government-sponsored demonstration today, featuring the omnipresent "Z"wastica — SophistiCat
Ancient Greece, for example, started off as a collection of separate city-states based on farming and trade. — Apollodorus
I don’t see expansion of a US empire, there are the claims about corporate exploitation and and litigation by US companies around the world, the spread of capitalism as an economic model etc etc. Again I don’t see evidence of imperial expansion there either (unless one conflates economic developments with imperialist expansion).This simply won't happen so long as the US retains its world imperial ambitions - ambitions which it not only holds, but continues to actively pursue
Of course, but US military intervention with the aim of occupying and rebuilding states in their own image have not happened for a long time. Following the disaster of the Iraq invasion and the destruction of the whole region from the fallout. The US has withdrawn from such ambitions, culminating in the chaotic withdrawal from Afghanistan. So no US imperialist expansion there either.Western invention continues to help stave children to death in Yemen, treat Palestinians like animals, subjugate Iraq, agitate for 'regime change' in places like Venezuela, Cuba, and Iran, produce famine in Afghanistan, fund and produce global Islamic terrorism, and deprive and debase its poor and "middle class" at home as a condition of all of the above.
The idea that there have been some univocal set of "Ukranian wishes" - either for or against both Russia and the West - is a complete back-projection that is largely a myth.
For the authoritarian like Putin, democracies look inherently weak and incapable of decisive action. Biden's US looked especially like that not only after the humiliating withdrawal from Afghanistan, but with the Capital riots and with the dumpster fire that US domestic politics is today. Then add the Europeans to this picture with Brexit, with squabbles over Polish and the Law and Justice Party or the Hungarian Orban. Not a group that you would anticipate to respond firmly with large coordination and being capable of dramatic turn arounds in policies.It is precisely because Putin sees the US withdrawing from interventions and the failures where they have. That Putin has been emboldened to carry out a full scale invasion of a neighbouring state. — Punshhh
Hence Moscovy was a vassal of the Mongol Horde. Only after 1380 the battle of Kulikovo Moscow began to rise as the Golden Horde was decaying. So this idea of Russia being the defender against the attacks of the Mongols is typical dubious history from you. — ssu
Moscow started its independence struggle from the Mongols by the 14th century, ending the Mongol rule (the so-called "Mongol yoke") in 1480, and eventually growing into the Tsardom of Russia.
Hence it's rather wrong to portray as you wrote "became an empire because it was forced to defend itself against attacks by the Mongols and other Central Asian invaders". Vassal's have chosen surrender.Of course Moscovy was a vassal of the Mongols as it had no other choice. — Apollodorus
Something like that. Because afterwards 1480 the expansion of Muscovy was totally classical imperial expansion of subjugating others that don't have much if anything to do with Russians. The last remnant of the Golden Horde could be said to be the Crimean Khanate (then an Ottoman Protectorate) and it was annexed by Catherine the Great in 1783. Quite important to the present as during that time starts the idea of Novorossiya.Parts of Russia remained under Mongol rule but the Mongols got finally defeated in 1480. — Apollodorus
Actually, there's your obvious and blatant apologism for Russian imperialism. You're simply delusional if you don't see it because Russian expansion didn't end in 1480. Basically it only started then, and thus Russia's action are totally comparable to the imperial aspirations of Great Britain.In any case, I don't think you can seriously compare Russia’s liberation from Mongol occupation with England’s invading and occupying India, Africa, and other places .... :grin: — Apollodorus
In any case, I don't think you can seriously compare Russia’s liberation from Mongol occupation with England’s invading and occupying India, Africa, and other places .... :grin:
graphics at 17 seconds and then at 1:27 — Jamal
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