What are our options?
(i) X is detectable then X exists (Rejected because of hallucinations)
(ii) X exists then X is detectable (Ok, can be used to demonstrate nonexistence via nondetectability) — Agent Smith
DENIED. ~Laozi & ZhuangziSince I have concluded, intuitively & logically, that our world (our reality ; our existence) is highly improbable, given that its fundamental process is Entropy -- inevitably leading to death & disappearance -- the necessity for an exogenous causal force seems undeniable. — Gnomon
What are our options?
(i) X is detectable then X exists (Rejected because of hallucinations)
(ii) X exists then X is detectable (Ok, can be used to demonstrate nonexistence via nondetectability)
— Agent Smith
Detectable implies material, but God is not material.
Therefore "detectable" should be defined so that it includes nonmaterial detection, ie. psychological phenomena, fulfillment of prayer and similar — SpaceDweller
What about so-called hallucinations/mirages? — Agent Smith
We know upfront mirages are fake because it can be proven.
hallucinations, I don't know.
but things such as clinical death are real. — SpaceDweller
There is a book called "life after death", it talks about survivors of clinical death, and their experiences.
most of them shared similar experiences, things such as "out of body" and "light and the end of tunnel" phenomena. — SpaceDweller
Of course, it's wordplay. But it's also Idea-play. That's what humans do. Those who deny Idealism, are repudiating Humanism. What distinguishes humans from animals? Mostly, it's the ability to convert sensory impressions into the communicatable concepts we call "Words" & "Ideas". We can then play-around with those "Memes" to construct worldviews that are more-than just sensory appearances. Those imaginary models of the world are what we label "Ideals" ; mental replicas of reality with improvements. They go beyond as-is Reality into as-if Ideality. And the positive result of that reasoning from IS to IF is what we call "Creativity". Of course, some creative ideas fall short of feasibility : e.g. Elon Musk says he wants to buy CocaCola, so he can put the Cocaine back in. I hope he's pulling-the-leg of Twitter twits.I like the way you make ideals another type of being. It's close to what I said once in another thread. There's no nonexistence, just different kinds of existence. I think Meinong of Meinong's jungle fame thought along the same lines. On this view it's wrong to say God, or anything else for that matter, doesn't exist. God exists but not in the same way as (say) a rock! Wordplay? — Agent Smith
Their faith make them seem blind towards God's mercy — javi2541997
Visionary on what? The atheist scientist being blind for what? — javi2541997
Yes. Some ancient philosophers (Pythagoras) and modern Physicists (Mario Livio) have imagined G*D metaphorically as a Divine Mathematician. My own metaphor, based on the Enformationism thesis, is that G*D is the Cosmic Programmer. These are not the kind of deities that you would worship, as a Tyrannical Heavenly Despot. Yet you have no choice but to obey His/Her Natural Laws. Fortunately, the Math Wizard has provided enough uncertainty in Nature, for humans to take advantage of the freedom to devise workarounds that result in Culture : nature modified to suit the special needs of big-brain bi-peds without fur & claws & fangs. :smile:Did you know, I'm sure you do, that mathematically speaking, everything reduces to points, lines, curves, each one of these translatable into an equation? In other words, if you want to know what Plato's world of forms looks like, go to bed with the Queen of the sciences (mathematics). — Agent Smith
I just Googled "Meinong's Jungle", and found that his view of Nominal vs Phenomenal existence was similar to my own assumption in the Enformationism Thesis. Phenomenal reality is what we know via the 5 senses. However, we also give names to abstract concepts (e.g. metaphors ; symbols) that exist only in the mind, and sometimes treat them as-if they were real things. But Materialists & Nominalists dismiss such imaginary "objects" (e.g. Unicorns & Pegasus) as non-sense. Ironically, that view would ignore most of what makes humans different from animals : imagination & projection into the not-yet-real future. Yes, those ideal "objects" even include popular religious figures and Marvel super-heroes.There's no nonexistence, just different kinds of existence. I think Meinong of Meinong's jungle fame thought along the same lines. — Agent Smith
Meinong, an Austrian philosopher active at the turn of the 20th century, believed that since non-existent things could apparently be referred to, they must have some sort of being, which he termed sosein ("being so") — Gnomon
I've always wondered about existence and God. Theists claim God exists, but they make it a point to state that God's immaterial/nonphysical. — Agent Smith
And rightly so. Ain't heaven a purely non-material state of existence? And the cosmos a material copy? — Hillary
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