They really amped up the Bond villain vibes — Count Timothy von Icarus

And people in here back in the early days of the invasion called me a moron for describing Putin's and Russia's actions in a way that sounded like that. Oh, the irony that they now almost go beyond what I wrote back then. :ok:

Want to make a bet? When Finland and Sweden announce they are seeking membership in NATO, the aerospace of either or both countries will be infringed by Russian aircraft. — ssu

Most definitely. I almost hope that they fuck something up and crash or misfire something so that the diplomatic fallout against Russia gets even worse. Wouldn't surprise me if they did, since their stupidity keeps trying to reach a new level.

Second, I wasn’t exclusively referring to the current scenario but also to the risks of escalation as one of your zealous fellows has warned all of us about — neomac

The risk is obvious.

Here are two experts discussing the very real risk of nuclear escalation, posted a few days after my comments:



The conclusion is exactly the same as mine, which is that currently only "taboo" in their words (but same concept as "breaking the ice"), is the main thing holding back use of tactical nuclear weapons in Ukraine.

The other thing is that Russia is still making gains using conventional methods, and so does not "need" to use tactical nuclear weapons.

And if the situation is maintained (of steady Russian gains and occupying most of the territory it says is the goal), then there's no reason to expect Russian policy to suddenly change.

However, this is not a stable situation. The context could easily change.

To give an opposing point of view, that Putin is "bluffing", here is another commentator:



With a video literally called "Calling Russia's Nuclear Bluff".

In terms of world ending nuclear exchange, Russia isn't making that threat.

The threat is presented always in ambiguous terms, but it's pretty clear the threat to use nuclear weapons is in Ukraine, not against NATO.

As @ssu points out, the threats (or then just the nuclear weapons in themselves) have already dissuaded NATO from things like a no-fly zone and giving heavy weapons early game (to be seen if heavy weapons now are symbolic gestures or not, but clearly it was to Russia's advantage that NATO only supplied limited weapons and still only supplies limited weapons). Given the public holy furore, boots on the ground in Ukraine would have been extremely likely absent nuclear weapons. So the the very real threat of nuclear weapons has already deterred direct NATO involvement.

If Russia was to use tactical nuclear weapons in Ukraine, it extremely unlikely NATO would launch a world ending nuclear strike. People would be upset, implement whatever sanctions are left to implement, but finally accept it.

The danger to Ukraine is obvious. The danger to the world would be hyper charging nuclear proliferation.

One may postulate various geopolitical constraints, such as assuming China would be upset about Russia using nuclear weapons. However, these sorts of assumptions are tenuous. More conflict and tensions in Europe the less "pivot" happens in the East. We do not know what Xi thinks about things, or wants, now or in some new context.

their meddling in Russia's backyard with Europe as its forward pawn
— Tzeentch

Russia is Europe's backyard. — Olivier5

...

Nobody likes to admit they live in the shed.

Yay. More of that amazing press freedom the West is so famous for...

https://jacobinmag.com/2022/05/paypal-independent-media-journalism-censorship-tech/

Over the past week, PayPal canceled without explanation the accounts of two prominent independent news outlets. It escaped notice by the mainstream press, which spent the weekend congratulating itself over the freedom to criticize the powerful.

senior staff writer Alan MacLeod having his personal account canceled at the same time. PayPal told him it had detected “activity in your account that’s inconsistent with our User Agreement,” something he calls “patently absurd” because the last time he had used PayPal was to buy a £5 Christmas gift in December.

That'll teach those freedom-hating Ruskies how do do it!

All of these Russians want to be free from Western influence, so be it, let them do whatever they want. Let us put up anti-air defense weapons around their borders so no nukes will fly out whenever someone has dementia and then let them be alone, isolated from the "western nazis". Let's stop all the trade and every interaction with them, they don't want to be part of the western world anyway, so fuck'em. — Christoffer

What you seem to be saying is that if someone doesn't want to submit to your EU-NATO Empire, they should be destroyed. Sounds Nazi enough to me. And a bit unhinged, to be honest.

Plus, Finland has a long history of Nazism. It's a well-known fact that Finland aligned itself with Hitler in WW2.

Far-right politics in Finland – Wikipedia
Finland's Tarnished Holocaust Record - Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs

Nobody is going to wait for Putin to make the first move on this. — neomac

Dude, what you're saying there makes no sense to me.

1. First you said that Russia’s nuclear arsenal is a threat. But all nuclear arsenals are a potential threat, including those of America, Britain, and France.

2. Then you said that Russia is a threat and/or Putin invaded Ukraine because of my “propaganda”, which sounds pretty incomprehensible and irrational to me.

3. The quotes you posted do not show that the US regards Russia as an imminent nuclear threat. Statements like “if someone does x, we’re going to do y”, do not support your claim.

4. And now you’re saying that “Nobody is going to wait for Putin to make the first move on this”.

If that is the case, why are you waiting???!!! :rofl:

You miss the point, the point is class and privilege, not blood lines (I said institutions) The structure of the British class system was virtually as rigid as the caste system, going right back to the year 1066.
Where do you think this class system (and therefore British imperialism) originated? — Punshhh

Well, hang on a second. Your argument seemed to be that the descendants of the Normans are "still totally in control of the population", and "did the global empire building you refer to".

Moreover, class system doesn’t seem to automatically lead to empire building. The Indian caste system hasn’t resulted in India building a world empire.

The empire builders were not necessarily the upper classes. They often were from middle-class down. Middle-class merchants and adventurers played a central role as can be seen from outfits like the East India and British South Africa Companies:

From the early sixteenth century downward adventurers like Hawkins, Drake, Raleigh, Blake, Monk, and a thousand others, had followed the sea, and in their calling had fought more desperately than all armies of the kingdom put together. Also they had reaped their reward. They had established themselves in every quarter of the globe, and magnates like Sir Josiah Child, who controlled the East India Company under Charles II., ranked with the chief nobles of the land. Moreover the great modern British epic was a naval epic, although by no means lacking in triumphs upon land. Possibly no nation within an equal space of time ever developed a more splendid or more varied array of martial genius than did England during the hundred and twenty seven years which elapsed between the expulsion of the Stuarts and Waterloo. Marlborough, Boscawen, Clive, Hawke, Wolfe, Rodney, Collingwood, Wellington, Nelson: on land and sea, to east and west, the Anglo-Saxon race did not so much defeat their rivals as expel from their conquests, and confine within their borders, all races attempting to compete with them in the expansion of their empire …

- Anglo-Saxon Review, Vol. 2, Sept. 1899

So, essentially, middle-class trade and merchant shipping, backed by military power. This doesn’t mean that upper-class elements weren’t involved, but the middle class which was often in competition with the upper class, seems to have been the main driving force.

But I agree with your analysis () that the whole debate around Ukraine may have to do with more than just geographical features. The real crisis may be pandemic-induced aggro and frustration. Perhaps people should spend less time on forums and take a walk outside or something …. :smile:

What you seem to be saying is that if someone doesn't want to submit to your EU-NATO Empire, they should be destroyed. Sounds Nazi enough to me. And a bit unhinged, to be honest. — Apollodorus

Russia is executing civilians, killing children, raping women and terrorizing the population of Ukraine while the Russian people, outside of the very few opposing the war and Putin, support this war, all while Putin himself has sent the Wagner group to Ukraine, a group that's literally neo-nazi. There are enough reasons to condemn and be hard against Russia and none of that has anything to do with Nato.

Russia has no right to decide on anything outside its borders, so that's literally what I meant, let them do whatever they want within Russia. The rest of the world does not have to do anything to them or adhere to any of their demands. As long as we are safe from their nukes, they can do whatever the fuck they want. It's basically giving them what they want, the freedom to be their own empire and feel pride for themselves being different from the west and the rest of the world.

The will of Russia is to be their own, so let them. Should the rest of the world also be under their rule? If they want to be left alone, then we leave them alone, that's it.

But none of this is possible for you to understand. You are clearly a Russian apologist who keeps defending Russia and Putin in every possible way. Why don't you move there and you can build the anti-western home you always wanted? It seems you admire the Russian empire and must criticize Nato in every possible way just so the "Russia is bad" doesn't solidify itself.

The problem for you is that Russia is in fact fucking bad, what they do in Ukraine is systematic killing of civilians and that warrants us to say that Russia can fuck off. There's been enough pages of apologists who keep doing whataboutery at every report of Russian war crimes and actions against the Ukraine people. But at this time its clear that the Russian army is filled with despicable aswipes under the rule of morally depleted men with masculinity problems.

To call us Nazis for being hard on Russia for what they are actually doing is such bad taste that you can fuck off yourself.

Someone's PayPall account was cancelled? Well, that should tell them... :gasp:

In Russia they'd just pump a bullet in the journalist's head.

Yeah, in Rwanda, children are forced into the military, so I guess that makes forcing them into mere child labour in India OK then?

Typically moronic response.

If suppressing the free press is bad, then suppressing the free press is bad. It doesn't become not bad because someone else's methods are more extreme.

Good collection. :up: Some videos have already been mentioned here.

If one doesn't have the time to read and someone is totally new to the subject, I urge looking at those (or listening while doing something else). — ssu

Thanks. :grin:

Plus, Finland has a long history of Nazism. It's a well-known fact that Finland aligned itself with Hitler in WW2. — Apollodorus

HAHAA!!!!

At least the Forum's Putin troll works like Clock-Work! Just as anticipated months ago, out comes the nazi card when Finland (& Sweden) will make their application.

I'm not interested in going through these arguments again. My reasons are well documented and you calling it nonsense doesn't really mean anything to me. The US is slowly deteriorating into a fascist state, spends an insane amount on war equipment and pays for it through an extractive process that had subjected a large part of the world to hellish circumstances, not to mention its own people. Europe is, as always, trying to emulate that system, in love with power as all politicians are, so slowly gliding in that direction.

The idea that the US isn't involved or only minimally in my view is a gross underestimation of the involvement of the US intelligence and military across the world. I assume I don't have to list all it's current bases resulting from continous "wars", eg. the war on terror and the war on drugs. Next we will have militarization of space, for which the groundwork is already laid. It's about control, bringing everything within the sphere of influence of the US. And it's NATO allies are useful idiots in furthering its agenda with zero risk and only benefit to the US.

But carry on. We'll revisit this in 5 or 10 years or so when we'll be dragged in the next war or at least have to pretend aggression isn't aggression because one of us is the perpetrator. .

HAHAA!!!!

At least the Forum's Putin troll works like Clock-Work! Just as anticipated months ago, out comes the nazi card when Finland (& Sweden) will make their application. — ssu

Yeah, right when Putin and his minions start doing anti-Sweden and anti-Finland propaganda to the gullible Russian morons we start to see that narrative in here as well. It's disgusting really.

It looks like some folks have their heads so deep in NATO propaganda, they forget that detailed info on Finland and Sweden’s collaboration with Hitler is all over the Internet.

More than 20 heads of state from around the world gathered in Stockholm yesterday to consider the lessons of the Holocaust against the background of a national awakening in Sweden to its own murky wartime record.
Swedes have long enjoyed the illusion of innocence, of freedom from Nazi-related guilt, but now, amid a welter of revelations, the country is slowly coming to terms with an historical truth that is more complicated than the idealistic neutrality thought to have been maintained throughout the Second World War.
Some Swedes were in fact engaged in close collaboration with Nazi Germany and their government deliberately chose to draw a thick veil over their activities when the war ended.
What has particularly shocked and disgusted many people in the run-up to the Stockholm conference on the Holocaust is a television documentary exposing how several hundred Swedish soldiers volunteered to fight on the German side during the war. Some worked as guards at Treblinka, the concentration camp where 900,000 Jews were murdered.
The Swedish authorities, it has now emerged, never attempted to investigate the deeds of these soldiers when the true horror of Nazi Germany came to light.
Sweden also enjoyed the profits of doing business with the Nazis. It is emerging now that some of the gold handled by its central bank, the Riksbank, had been looted from Jews by the German Nazis. There was evidence at the time that the gold was plundered but both the management of the Riksbank and the government turned a blind eye. Unclaimed accounts in Swedish banks at the end of the war were also handled ineptly.
Most Swedes behaved honourably during the war and this is borne out by the fact that refugee status was given to thousands of Scandinavian Jews. Raoul Wallenberg, the Swedish diplomat who saved some 20,000 Hungarian Jews by issuing them with Swedish passports is, of course, the prime example of personal heroism against evil.
Nevertheless, Swedes have begun to look at their past from a new perspective. The morality of neutrality is being seriously questioned.
At the same time, the Swedish neo-Nazi movement is growing stronger.
History makes it clear that among Swedes Raoul Wallenberg was an exception …

Murky truth of how a neutral Sweden covered up its collaboration with Nazis - Independent

Like their German counterparts, the Swedish Nazis were strongly anti-semitic and as early as May, 1945 became early adopters of Holocaust denial … At the end of the 1980s a new National Socialist movement developed in Sweden … Particularly in the 1990s, there was a plethora of neo-Nazi organizations, most infamous being the militant network Vitt Ariskt Motstånd ("VAM") which translates to White Aryan Resistance … Of neo-Nazi movements, the Swedish Resistance Movement (SMR) most resembles classical Nazism. It professes openly to National Socialism and believes that people can be divided into races with characteristic properties. It calls for a government with a strong leader … Many individuals who had been active in the Nazi movement have connections in established Swedish society. These include eminent individuals and professionals such as police officers … Only in recent years has the Swedish press acknowledged Queen Silvia's father, Walter Sommerlath, was a member of the German NSDAP, and never left it …

Nazism in Sweden – Wikipedia

Sweden not only collaborated with Hitler but tried to cover it up!

And of course Finland is up to its neck in it:

Finland's air force has been using a swastika ever since it was founded in 1918, shortly after the country became an independent nation and long before Nazism devastated Europe.
Until 1945 its planes bore a blue swastika on a white background - and this was not intended to show allegiance to Nazi Germany, though the two nations were aligned.
While the symbol was left off planes after World War Two, a swastika still featured in some Air Force unit emblems, unit flags and decorations - including on uniforms

Finland's air force quietly drops swastika symbol – BBC

Far-right politics in Finland – Wikipedia

Finland's Tarnished Holocaust Record - Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs

So, yes, truth can be quite disgusting. But it shouldn't be covered up ....

And of course Finland is up to its neck in it:

"Finland's air force has been using a swastika ever since it was founded in 1918, shortly after the country became an independent nation and long before Nazism devastated Europe." — Apollodorus

In what? Do you read your own sources? The symbol had nothing to do with Hitler or Nazism.

Yeah, right when Putin and his minions start doing anti-Sweden and anti-Finland propaganda to the gullible Russian morons we start to see that narrative in here as well. It's disgusting really. — Christoffer

@Apollodorus is a genuine troll, so it's really not worth replying to him.

Enough people have tried to correct his delusions. It hasn't been just you or me, you know.

Don't feed the troll.

In what? Do you read your own sources? The symbol had nothing to do with Hitler or Nazism. — Baden

Which, of note, Naziism had not yet been invented in 1918.

Hitler viewed Scandinavians ( + Finland) as "good aryans" and so borrowed a lot of nordic symbolism.

The basic Swastika motif not being particularly nordic though.

The swastika symbol, 卐 or 卍, today primarily recognized in the West for its use by the Nazi party,[1] is an ancient religious symbol in various Eurasian cultures. It is used as a symbol of divinity and spirituality in Indic religions, including Hinduism, Buddhism and Jainism.[2][3][4][5][6] It generally takes the form of a cross, the arms of which are of equal length and perpendicular to the adjacent arms, each bent midway at a right angle.[7][8] — wikipdia

The wikipedia lists almost the entire world under the heading "Historical uses".

The article says:

this was not intended to show allegiance to Nazi Germany, though the two nations were aligned.

Finland was aligned with Hitler at the time. And Fascism or National Socialism was quite influential in Finland:

The far-right groups exercised considerable political power, pressuring the government to outlaw communist parties and newspapers and expel Freemasons from the armed forces ... During the Cold War, all partied deemed fascist were banned according to the Paris Peace Treaties and all former fascist activists had to find new political homes. Despite Finlandization, many continued in public life. Yrjö Ruutu, the leader of the National Socialist Union of Finland (SKSL) joined the Finnish People's Democratic League. Juhani Konkka, the party secretary and editor-in-chief of the party newspaper National Socialist, abandoned politics and became an accomplished translator, receiving a cultural award of the Soviet Union. Three former members of the Waffen SS served as ministers of defense; the Finnish SS Battalion officers Sulo Suorttanen and Pekka Malinen as well as Mikko Laaksonen, a soldier in the Maschinengewehr-Ski-Bataillon "Finnland" consisting of pro-Nazi Finns who rejected the peace treaty.

Far-right politics in Finland - Wikipedia

The idea that the US isn't involved or only minimally in my view is a gross underestimation of the involvement of the US intelligence and military across the world. — Benkei

I don't think you even bothered to read my argument. US is one player, but when it comes to Russia and Ukraine, it's a minor reason.

Just as I said, it would incorrect to assume that the actions that US did during the Cold War in Central America and the Caribbean happened only because of the Soviet Union and the Cold War. The argument that "Because NATO, Russia is acting as it does" is a similar argument. The US has a long history of intervening in the area long before the Cold War. But were they afraid of Communism and countries becoming soviet allies like Cuba? Of Course! And so is Russia about NATO. That fact is that if NATO would have been disbanded, it would have been just easier for Putin to conquer back the states that had gotten independence when the Soviet Union collapsed. It's present in what he has said, what he has done and the whole issue what Russia, fortress Russia with it's buffer zones, is for Putin.

And as you have said you don't care a shit about Russian internal politics, well, that's your problem.

Of course Putin sees the US and NATO as enemy, but your argument that this war could have been prevented if not NATO expansion is something I simply disagree with. It doesn't take into account how Russia behaves in it's near abroad independently of the US.

But carry on. We'll revisit this in 5 or 10 years — Benkei

Let's do that. Because Putin might be viewed really then in different light as before.

Naziism had not yet been invented in 1918. — boethius

National socialist tendencies and even the term itself existed long before Hitler:

The term "national socialism" was used by a number of unrelated groups before the Nazis, but since their rise to prominence it has become associated almost exclusively with their ideas.

National Socialism - Wikipedia

Austrian Nazism or Austrian National Socialism was a pan-German movement that was formed at the beginning of the 20th century. The movement took a concrete form on 15 November 1903 when the German Worker's Party (DAP) was established in Austria

Austrian Nazism - Wikipedia

Finland was aligned with Hitler at the time. — Apollodorus

But:

this was not intended to show allegiance to Nazi Germany

And:

"Finland participated in the Second World War initially in a defensive war against the Soviet Union, followed by another battle against the Soviet Union acting in concert with Germany and then finally fighting alongside the Allies against Germany."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finland_in_World_War_II#:~:text=During%20World%20War%20II%2C%20Finland,refugees%20were%20safe%20from%20persecution.

So:

You have nothing.

Which, of note, Naziism had not yet been invented in 1918. — boethius

And of course for the Finnish Air Force, the Swastika, the emblem for good luck, came from the first aircraft given to the White Forces by a Swedish Count Eric von Rosen during the War of Independence (or Civil War, as the politically correct name is), who had the emblem painted on his aircraft when the aircraft was flown to Finland.



So I guess the connection in that story fits in perfectly with the absolute bullshit one troll has here.... After all, if one Austrian adopts the symbol later for his small party, there is obvious link to then to that parties ideology.

But one is 100% correct that Russia is going to use that to paint Swedes and Finns into evil nazi scum. The people of the Baltic States are there already.

If suppressing the free press is bad, then suppressing the free press is bad. It doesn't become not bad because someone else's methods are more extreme. — Isaac

Still, there are far worse threats to press freedom than journalists losing their Paypal accounts. In the UK, for instance, the 2022 report from RSF lists "worrisome governmental legislative proposals, extensive restrictions on freedom of information, the prolonged detention of Julian Assange, and threats to the safety of journalists in Northern Ireland" as the most significant issues.

In the US, they highlight excessive concentration, "the disappearance of local news, the polarisation of the media or the weakening of journalism and democracy caused by digital platforms and social networks", an "unprecedented climate of animosity and aggression during protests, where unprovoked physical attacks occurred on clearly identified reporters", and likewise "unprecedented levels of distrust in the American media", linked to "four years of President Trump constantly denigrating the press". No mention of Paypal.

In France, "mechanisms for combatting conflicts of interest in the media are insufficient, inappropriate and outdated. ... reporters have also been the targets of many physical attacks by demonstrators"... Nothing was said of French journalists' access to online payments options...

Yeah, but none of that was related to Ukraine. PayPal's actions (allegedly) were. Are we going to talk about Hungarian bath houses again now?

none of that was related to Ukraine. PayPal's actions (allegedly) were. — Isaac

Key word: allegedly.

Several Nazi parties operated in Finland in the 1930s and 1940s, among them the Finnish People's Organisation (SKJ) led by Jäger Captain Arvi Kalsta with 20,000 members and the Blue Cross with 12,000 members. Even the Swedish-speaking Finns had their own Nazi organizations like the People's Community Society led by the former governor Admiral Hjalmar von Bonsdorff and Gunnar Lindqvist and the Black Guard led by Örnulf Tigerstedt

Even outside of the actual National Socialist movements, there was glorification of the Nazi Germany in Finnish society. The Finnish police magazine wrote about German police sports and the "Citizens' Reporting Service" (Volksmeldedienst) set up by Reinhard Heydrich uncritically and emphasizing the effectiveness of the Gestapo. The Finnish secret police operated under Ministry of the Interior, led by pro-Nazi and antisemitic Toivo Horelli. The State Police itself was led by also openly pro-Nazi and antisemitic Arno Anthoni and under him it cooperated with the SS, Einsatzkommando Finnland and Sicherheitsdienst. The State Information Service, responsible for propaganda and censorship, also employed the aforementioned right-wing extremists and published pro-German material like Finnlands Lebensraum.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Far-right_politics_in_Finland

IMO that isn't quite "nothing". And it's generally acknowledged historical fact, not "Russian propaganda". Wikipedia isn't owned by Putin last time I checked ....

Nazi party was founded in 1920, which is 2 years after the Finnish plane.

The Nazi Party,[a] officially the National Socialist German Workers' Party (German: Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei or NSDAP), was a far-right[7][page needed][8] political party in Germany active between 1920 and 1945 that created and supported the ideology of Nazism. — wikipedia

Additionally, it's a tiny party at the time, the symbol is a common and there would be no reason for anyone to believe the Finnish airforce is supporting some small party in Germany by using the same symbol.

It's only a "big thing" in retrospect after the Nazi's take over Germany and start WWII.

That there are Nazi sympathisers in Finland both leading up to WWII and during WWII and also after, I would not dispute. However, unlike Azov battalion, these Nazi sympathisers don't have their own institution and integration into the government.

However, this history seems largely irrelevant to the current situation (the current war is in Ukraine, the current government in Finland wanting to join NATO is very left and a long way from being far-right, the direct support for Nazi's in Ukraine comes from the US, and EU countries are simply lapdogs in this affair without much autonomy, so their internal politics is largely irrelevant in any case; the Finnish government supports Nazi's in Ukraine because they are told that's not true and told what to do, so that's the end of the political discourse about that; left or right doesn't matter and it's the same for nearly all EU countries).

Key word: allegedly. — Olivier5

Sure. I'm sure the fact that...

Consortium, founded by the late investigative reporter Robert Parry, has been critical of NATO and the Pentagon and a consistent source of skeptical reporting about Russiagate, as well as one of just a few outlets to regularly cover the Julian Assange case with any sympathy for the accused. Ironically, one of the site’s primary themes involves exploring disinformation emanating from the intelligence community. The site has had content disrupted by platforms like Facebook before, but now its pockets are being picked in addition. — https://taibbi.substack.com/p/paypals-indymedia-wipeout?s=r

...and...

... the thread connecting the recent affected accounts — which include the former RT contributor Caleb Maupin and the host of the Geopolitics and Empire podcast Hrvoje Morić, among others — is that they’re all generally antiwar voices, who’ve been critical either of NATO or of official messaging with regard to the Ukraine conflict. — https://taibbi.substack.com/p/paypals-indymedia-wipeout?s=r

...are just astonishing coincidences.

It looks like some folks have their heads so deep in NATO propaganda, they forget that detailed info on Finland and Sweden’s collaboration with Hitler is all over the Internet. — Apollodorus

It looks like you have your head so deep in... somewhere... that you've forgotten the Nazi-Soviet pact.



Now that's collboration, baby.