including anecdotes about 9-year-olds being hooked on it and dubious stats about it destroying marriages. — Arkady
Firstly, I don't deny that vast numbers of children have access to porn. What I called an anecdote was the story of the child who became addicted to porn at 9 years old. Having access to X and becoming addicted to X are 2 different things.They're not anecdotes. There are indubitably enormous numbers of pre-teens - literally hundreds of millions, possibly billions - who have unrestricted access to endless amounts of pornographic video. This is fact. — Wayfarer
I don't know which variety of porn you are speaking of, but I assume that it was something of a violent nature if it motivated "ghastly sexual murders"? If that's the case, then let us not draw a false equivalency between violent pornography and pornography simpliciter. Even if outlawing particular types of porn may be advisable, that doesn't entail that outlawing all porn is likewise advisable.Of course 'censoring the internet' is controversial - as I have often observed, arguing against porn on an internet forum, is like arguing against beer in a pub. Nevertheless, following a spate of truly ghastly sexual murders in the UK, the British government is actually enacting legislation to outlaw some categories of porn. Of course the Guardian is outraged.
Yes, porn can be harmful and addictive. It doesn't follow that it's inherently harmful and addictive, unless you wish to maintain that anyone who has ever viewed porn became addicted to and was harmed by it. — Arkady
Perhaps children feel the need to view porn in secret because sex is treated as dirty and shameful, and humans are made to feel sinful for having sexual desires? — Arkady
Perhaps then the solution is more sex education to let adolescents know how sex "really" is, and not have unrealistic or distorted expectations or beliefs about sex. — Arkady
If that's the case, then let us not draw a false equivalency between violent pornography and pornography simpliciter. — Arkady
Doesn't it just come down to one's meta-ethical stance in the end? For a utilitarian, harm would be the sole factor. For a Divine Command Ethicist it would include what God decrees. For a deontologist, the issue you mention about means and ends would come into play.Should harm be the deciding factor? What of moral intuition? — anonymous66
You said:Clearly I never said that. I was asking an open question about just how harmful porn is. — Noble Dust
These look more like assertions than questions to me.I'm simply arguing that porn is harmful and addictive. What I find worrisome is that so many people don't seem to see it as an addiction. Society at large continues to seem to think that porn is a positive thing. It's not. — Noble Dust
What's "classic porn," just out of curiosity?This is definitely a problem. I was mentioning the secrecy of porn though, because it's almost a joke. No one invites their friends over to watch some classic porn. — Noble Dust
Isn't it just possible that some people have a taste for more violent forms of porn, just as some people have a taste for S&M, sado-masochism and the like in their personal sexual lives?The problem is that porn addiction escalates in the same way that tolerance escalates in drug or alcohol addiction. Those violent forms of pornography only exist because of porn addiction. — Noble Dust
And what percentage of people are using porn in a "healthy" manner, exactly? Plenty of social drinkers are not alcoholics, but virtually all cocaine users are addicted on the first hit. Where does porn fall on the spectrum? How many porn users are addicts? — Noble Dust
Yes, I did see your questions, but you clearly also made multiple assertions, contra your claim that you were only asking open questions about porn.The questions I referenced came right after what you just quoted: — Noble Dust
If the claim, "it's immoral" isn't enough to persuade people to disallow something in our society, then it seems the next step must be to show that it is harmful. — anonymous66
Yes, I did see your questions, but you clearly also made multiple assertions, contra your claim that you were only asking open questions about porn. — Arkady
Isn't it just possible that some people have a taste for more violent forms of porn, just as some people have a taste for S&M, sado-masochism and the like in their personal sexual lives? — Arkady
Stop misquoting me. I never said that I was only asking questions. I said I was "asking an open question about just how harmful porn is." This is not important. — Noble Dust
I'm not necessarily arguing that porn should be banned or outlawed. That's also an unrealistic notion. I'm simply arguing that porn is harmful and addictive. What I find worrisome is that so many people don't seem to see it as an addiction. Society at large continues to seem to think that porn is a positive thing. It's not. — Noble Dust
Yes, porn can be harmful and addictive. It doesn't follow that it's inherently harmful and addictive, unless you wish to maintain that anyone who has ever viewed porn became addicted to and was harmed by it. — Arkady
You said that porn is "harmful and addictive," not that it can be harmful and addictive. I took that to mean that you were saying that it is by nature harmful and addictive. If my interpretation is erroneous, how should I have interpreted that statement?Clearly I never said that. I was asking an open question about just how harmful porn is. — Noble Dust
If I see a serial rapist put behind bars for the rest of his life for his crimes and take pleasure in that, is it morally wrong (let us assume that he suffers from his punishment and doesn't take some perverse pleasure in having his freedom taken away)?Deriving pleasure from someone's else's suffering, whether real or voyeristically, is morally wrong.
rates of syphilis, gonorrhea, teen sex, teen births, divorce, and rape have all substantially declined.
Contrary to the critics’ assertions, as porn consumptions increased, so did emotional closeness to others. — anonymous66
There's also the potential connection to child porn. What percentage of adult porn actors started their careers in child porn? The demarcation between trafficking, prostitution, child porn and adult porn is not at all so clear cut. — Noble Dust
Should harm be the deciding factor? What of moral intuition? Are there other forms of harm that haven't been considered (like the harm of treating people as a means to an end)?
This is definitely a problem. I was mentioning the secrecy of porn though, because it's almost a joke. No one invites their friends over to watch some classic porn. — Noble Dust
What's "classic porn," just out of curiosity? — Arkady
Where did this information come from and how was it obtained? — Bitter Crank
From this article:rates of syphilis, gonorrhea, teen sex, teen births, divorce, and rape have all substantially declined.
Contrary to the critics’ assertions, as porn consumptions increased, so did emotional closeness to others.
— anonymous66
Where did this information come from and how was it obtained?
The rate of increased diagnoses of syphilis, gonorrhea, and chlamydia has been slow but steady--when viewing the whole nation. When considering race, location, and age, we find disparities between gay men and straight men, between blacks and other races, and between southerners and other regions. Rates of STDs are highest among blacks, southerners, and gay men, and there are significant disparities which porn wouldn't seem to account for, one way or the other. If one examines the history of diagnoses at specific clinics, one might see more up-and-down movement in diagnoses.
What is most related to the levels of STDs in the population is the effectiveness of outreach, treatment, and follow-up. Has anyone collected actual data about cases who looked at, or did not look at porn? I doubt it. — Bitter Crank
* Sexual irresponsibility has declined. Standard measures include rates of abortion and sexually transmitted infections. According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), since 1990, the nation's abortion rate has fallen 41 percent. The syphilis rate has plummeted 74 percent. And the gonorrhea rate has plunged 57 percent.
* Teen sex has declined. The CDC says that since 1991, the proportion of teens who have had intercourse has decreased 7 percent. Teen condom use has increased 16 percent. And the teen birth rate has fallen 33 percent.
* Divorce has declined. Since 1990, the divorce rate has decreased 23 percent.
* Rape has declined. According to the Justice Department's National Crime Victimization Survey, since 1995, the sexual assault rate has fallen 44 percent.
Arrival of the Internet: More Porn, LESS Rape
Before the late-1990s when the Internet revolutionized access to information, porn was available in books, skin magazines, rented videocassettes, and at the limited number of seedy theaters that screened X-rated movies. But with the arrival of the Internet, millions of porn images and videos were suddenly just a few clicks away for free. As a result, porn quickly became one of men’s top online destinations and porn consumption soared.
If the anti-porn activists are correct, if porn actually contributes to rape, then starting around 1999 as the Internet made it much more easily available, the rate of sexual assault should have increased. So what happened? According to the Justice Department’s authoritative National Crime Victimization Survey, since 1995, the U.S. sexual assault rate has FALLEN 44 percent. For more on this, see my previous post, Does Porn Cause Social Harm?
Clearly, the anti-porn activists are wrong. Porn doesn’t incite men to sexual violence. It looks more like a safety valve that gives men an alternative outlet for potentially assaultive energy. Instead of attacking women, men who might commit that crime can masturbate to unlimited amounts of Internet porn.
The Czech Republic: More Porn, LESS Rape
Another natural experiment involves the political changes in Eastern Europe. From 1948 to 1989, the Communist police state then known as Czechoslovakia made possession of pornography (including relatively tame publications like Playboy) a criminal offense punishable by prison. As a result, porn was largely unavailable to Czech men. But when Communism collapsed and the democratic Czech Republic emerged, it legalized porn, which became easily and widely available. So what happened to women’s risk of sexual assault?
Using Czech police records, American and Czech researchers compared rape rates in the Czech Republic for the 17 years before porn was legalized with rates during the 18 years after. Rapes decreased from 800 a year to 500. More porn, less rape.
In addition, the legalization of porn was associated with a decrease in another despicable sex crime, child sexual abuse. Under Communism, arrests for child sex abuse averaged 2,000 a year. After porn became legal, the figure dropped by more than half to fewer than 1,000. More porn, fewer sex crimes.
Denmark: More Porn, LESS Rape
In the 1970s, Denmark relaxed restrictions on pornography, and the country quickly became a center of porn production. Researchers compared arrest rates for sexual assault before and after the change. When porn became more easily available, allegations of rape decreased.
Japan, China, Hong Kong: More Porn, LESS Rape
Around the millennium, partly in response to the availability of Internet porn, Japan, China, and Hong Kong relaxed laws that restricted its availability. In all three places, as porn became more easily available, sex crimes decreased.
Compared with Most Men, Rapists Consume LESS Porn
UCLA researchers surveyed recollections of porn use among law-abiding men and a large group of convicted rapists and child sex abusers. Throughout their lives, the sex criminals recalled consuming LESS porn. More evidence that porn is a safety valve. Instead of committing rape and pedophilia, potential perpetrators find a less harmful outlet, masturbating to porn.
Pornography DOESN’T Isolate Men
As evidence mounted that if anything, porn helps PREVENT sexual assault, porn critics changed their tune. Instead of blaming X-media for harming women, they claimed it harms MEN by confining them in a dark prison of masturbatory isolation that destroys their interpersonal relationships with others.
English researchers gave 164 men standard psychological tests of interpersonal connectedness to determine their emotional closeness to—or distance from—the important people in their lives (spouses, family, friends). Then the researchers surveyed the men’s porn consumption.
Contrary to the critics’ assertions, as porn consumptions increased, so did emotional closeness to others. Far from providing an escape from close relationships, the researchers suggested that porn use may signify a “craving for intimacy.”
Diamond, M. et al. “Pornography and Sex Crimes in the Czech Republic,” Archives of Sexual Behavior (2011) 40:1037
Diamond, M. “The Effects of Pornography: An International Perspective,” in Pornography 101: Eroticism, Sexuality, and the First Amendment, edited by J. Elias et al. Prometheus Press, Amherst, NY, 1999.
Diamond, M. and A. Uchiyama. “Pornography, Rape, and Sex Crimes in Japan,” International Journal of Law and Psychiatry (1999) 22:1.
Goldstein, M. et al. “Experience with Pornography: Rapists, Pedophiles, Homosexuals, Transsexuals, and Controls,” Archives of Sexual Behavior (19971) 1:1.
Kutchinsky, B. Pornography and Rape: Theory and Practice? Evidence from crime Data in Four Countries, Where Pornography is Easily Available,” International Journal of Law and Psychiatry (1991) 14:47.
Kutchinsky, B. “The Effect of Easy Availability of Pornography on the Incidence of Sex Crimes: The Danish Experience,” Journal of Social Issues (1973) 29:163.
Poipovic, M. “Pornography Use and Closeness with Others in Men,” Archives of Sexual Behavior (2011) 40:449
I would say that it likely has the causal arrow reversed, to the extent there is a causal relationship between the belief that "all consensual sex is fine" (which I doubt is even a widespread view, as, for instance, adulterous sex can be consensual and yet frowned upon) and the societal acceptance of porn. I think it is more likely the case that more relaxed social mores regarding sex fuels the societal acceptance of porn than vice-versa.What would you make of an argument like this one?: Porn is giving people the wrong idea. It suggests that all consensual sex is fine. — anonymous66
is there good porn
— Cavacava
Consequentialism is the hands-on winner here. If it works, it's good.
I would say that it likely has the causal arrow reversed, to the extent there is a causal relationship between the belief that "all consensual sex is fine" (which I doubt is even a widespread view, as, for instance, adulterous sex can be consensual and yet frowned upon) and the societal acceptance of porn.I think it is more likely the case that more relaxed social mores regarding sex drives the societal acceptance of porn than vice-versa. — Arkady
The trouble with porn, for many who are watching purely for excitement, is it gets boring. After seeing two people fucking, watching another couple do so is less interesting. With each iteration, it only gets more and more beige. — TheWillowOfDarkness
I don't think that more relaxed or permissive social mores surrounding sex are necessarily a problem, so I don't believe that any solution is required (teen pregnancy is down in the U.S., for instance). The antidote to bad speech (if one so considers porn), as in most cases of bad speech, is more speech, in this case jettisoning foolishness such as abstinence-only sex education and giving adolescents realistic, frank, and comprehensive education about sex and human sexuality.Can you think of a solution? — anonymous66
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