Hopes or on changes to a liberal democracy are fine, insistence really none of our business and dangerous — Benkei
So trade partners would ask for liberal democracy and giving up nukes, to which sooner or later Russia would have to agree. — M777
The majority of countries have not changed their trade relations with Russia and for the time being Europe is not free of its energy dependence on Russia. — Benkei
Question for everyone on this thread: If you could avoid countless deaths and possibly nuclear war by allowing Russia to take Ukraine, would you?
Being able to trade with some Paraguay, or even China for that matter, doesn't really help Russia much. They can buy stuff from China, but they need dollars/euros first, so they need to sell stuff to Europe. — M777
you were only too happy to mention Western leaders urging peace. Did they do so because they think it's pie in sky according to you or because they see a realistic road to peace? I assume it's the latter and I'm challenging you to think about what that would look like but as usual thinking beyond your pre-conceived opinions is beyond you. — Benkei
They didn't say: "peace now and no matter what". They said 1) Ukraine decides when and what they want to negotiate; 2) Restoring Ukraine's territorial integrity ought to be the primary goal now; 3) but ultimately, once this is achieved (if possible) then a peace deal will need to be found — Olivier5
Neither politician even referenced the idea of peace negotiations only following a Ukrainian win. — Isaac
the French president continues to plead, in the long term, for a "negotiated peace" with Moscow. This would follow a ceasefire that is still unattainable at this stage, with fighting still raging in the Donbas. For him, despite the delivery of heavy weapons to Kyiv, there is no question of allowing the conflict to drag on with the idea of weakening Russia. The priority remains, if possible, to re-establish Ukraine within its historical borders, or at least within those of before February 24, the date of the Russian invasion. (Le Monde) — Olivier5
the kind of peace Ukraine wants — Olivier5
what would that possibly look like. — Benkei
However, "in the long term", a peace deal will need to be found. — Olivier5
either they stop pushing back the Russians at the pre-24 Feb border and allow Putin for some face saving way out — Olivier5
Peskov said Moscow could "end war immediately" if Ukraine agreed to sign a neutrality agreement that would bar it from entering NATO, recognized Crimea as Russian, recognized the regions of Luhansk and Donetsk as independent, and ceased all military action.
How else to explain this delirious disinformation campaign on Twitter? — SophistiCat
simply because it validated their favorite narratives — SophistiCat
What it may look like now is this: either they stop pushing back the Russians at the pre-24 Feb border and allow Putin for some face saving way out, or they keep on pushing until they reconquer Crimea and Dombas. — Olivier5
So remind me again why you want the war to continue? — Isaac
Peskov said Moscow could "end war immediately" if Ukraine agreed to sign a neutrality agreement that would bar it from entering NATO, recognized Crimea as Russian, recognized the regions of Luhansk and Donetsk as independent, and ceased all military action.
So remind me again why you want the war to continue? — Isaac
These are results of the war. The question was what would a peace agreement look like. — Benkei
stopping now would strategically be stupid when they're on the cusps of nullifying any gains the Russians made. — Benkei
I don't want the war to continue. This is not about me. — Olivier5
This offer you mentioned dates from early March and was the basis for the talks in Antalya, Turkey during the month of March, talks during which some progress was reportedly achieved. Then the Bucha massacre came to light and the Ukrainian position stiffened while the Russians were denying it all. — Olivier5
And yes, there is a flaw in your logic, because according to it the most crazy dictator can get his hands on a nuke and rule the world by threatening to blow it up. — M777
Our forefathers fought for a host of freedoms over centuries. To give them up is an insult and thankless, so I really don't agree. Mere survival, life without dignity is not enough. I don't believe Russia poses such an existential threat. China might eventually. — Benkei
Which is why we should ban nuclear weapons. But even if a crazy dictator did get his hands on nukes— say the threat or possibility was real. Is it worth losing literally everything? — Xtrix
Get involved in philosophical discussions about knowledge, truth, language, consciousness, science, politics, religion, logic and mathematics, art, history, and lots more. No ads, no clutter, and very little agreement — just fascinating conversations.