• Vincent
    95
    Everyone here will think that doing away with money is the dumbest thing you've ever heard of. But do we really need it?
    The competitive money system has given us a lot of progress and prosperity. But because it is a competition system, there are always losers. We are eight billion people now and most of them are in debt or even have no chance of education, health care or even money for food. Another part lives with all the wealth and therefore has more chances in life. But because of this competition, nature is consumed immensely and so nature and climate are deteriorating. One's death is another's bread. The world is on the brink of collapse due to the constant competition we are forced to live.
    What if a real climate catastrophe happens soon? Who's going to pay for that? Nobody has a solution for that, while I think the solution is very simple. And that is abolishing the money. That will of course cause many other problems. But money is actually a barrier to problem solving. Because the money disappears, many more people will have the opportunity to stand up for society and people will work together much more for the purpose of progress and therefore no longer for profit.
    There is a jumble of systems invented throughout history about how to deal with 'money' and possessions. Every religion is about how to handle money and greed. There is democracy, socialism, communism, capitalism, etc. Everyone knows what these stand for, but nobody realizes that they are all more similar than everyone thinks. It's all about how to handle money and how to distribute it among the people. And because the world is now on the precipice, proof has been provided that all of these systems have failed.
    Why doesn't anyone even think about it if we do need money. We now have the internet, artificial intelligence, robotics, etc. We now have technologies that weren't there before. We can easily develop a new economic system without competition. One where everyone is automatically entitled to basic needs. Of course, that will cause a lot of problems in the beginning. But look around you, right now we're not doing well either.
    I have not had the opportunity to educate myself. That has many drawbacks in a competition system like it is with the money. But that also has advantages. I am not brainwashed by money and can manage to think further about solutions without having to pay first. Is there anyone who would like to discuss the concept of 'money' with me? You probably see a lot of problems, for which I already know the solution.
  • Agent Smith
    9.5k
    Nec quid nemis. The proposal - abolish money - is too extremist. A bad workman blames his tools says the old adage. Necessity is the mother of invention i.e. money serves a vital purpose in the economy (commerce & trade).

    Too, human nature doesn't take too kindly to things with zero utility.

    I would suggest the rational use of money and, of course, other resources with a little bit of :heart: thrown in for good measure (xin). A pipe dream? Possibly, but it feels so right! :chin:
  • Vincent
    95
    The proposal - abolish money - is too extremist.Agent Smith

    It is of course not possible to immediately abolish money. But we can immediately abolish cash. We can introduce a digital global currency where everyone gets a fixed basic income. In this way, competition and crime will disappear.

    Too, human nature doesn't take too kindly to things with zero utility.Agent Smith

    It is not human nature not to be kind to useless things. In the eyes of people, something is only useful if it generates money. Something is only useful to a person if he himself benefits from it.
    When the competition system disappears and people no longer have to fight for progress, people will find other things useful. Goals will change. And if a good leader stands up to steer the people in the right direction, then people will find things like love useful. In this way people will start to love nature and in the long run they will be able to grow into a protector of life instead of a destroyer.
  • Agent Smith
    9.5k
    fixed basic income.Vincent

    I think this has been tried before! It didn't work out.

    It is not human nature not to be kind to useless things.Vincent

    Perhaps I'm wrong, but then so are most of the people I know. The world has a way of taking perfectly normal people and turning them into cynics & pessimists. It's rather curious. Plus these very same people tend to be highly successful.
  • universeness
    6.3k
    Everyone here will think that doing away with money is the dumbest thing you've ever heard of. But do we really need it?Vincent

    An inaccurate assumption but I agree with you that the money trick is an evil system.
    Even dimwitted theism came up with 'the love of money is the root of all evil.'
    This was generally changed to the more popular 'money is the root of all evil.'
    Money is the ultimate and most ancient con trick there is.
    Have a look at my thread called:
    https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/12453/the-ragged-trousered-philanthropists-and-the-money-trick
    UBI or Universal Basic Income is gaining a lot of support and popularity nationally and internationally.
    Paper and metal money are already on the road out. Common currencies like the Euro reduce the number of global currencies.
    Money is a very bad human invention that has been used to maintain the vile concept of rich and poor humans. It absolutely has to go.
  • Vincent
    95
    where has that been tried? In Belgium we have a basic income and I think things are going reasonably well. The problem is that fictitious money is limited and unfairly distributed. Many are not competitive or may not be 'smart' enough to look after their own money. They have interests that are not useful for the economy and are therefore ostracized. Those who are not useful for the competition economy will never get the chance to further develop their talents.
    I think we need to create an economy where everyone gets what they need. Some need more resources than others, so they will have to get more income. Others who need fewer resources will receive less income. Now it's the other way around. Now the people who don't need resources get more income and people who need more resources get less income. Everyone is different and a basic income must therefore be based on the needs of the people and on resources available.
    This unequal division and fighting mentality is deteriorating the health of the planet and making people much more pessimistic about everything. A total reset of the economy is needed to save the climate. And that starts with a universal basic income without cash and then has it evolve through the internet and AI in a completely cash-free world. I think that will be possible in a few decades.
  • Agent Smith
    9.5k
    Good points! Kudos for the nobility of the sentiment.

    Two issues

    1. Sometimes, the tool is the problem. Fossil fuel based engines for example.

    2. Sometimes, the tool user is the problem. Replace money with x. Money has been removed, but people are the same. The problem will resurface immediately or later, but it will resurface with x now instead of moolah.
  • Hillary
    1.9k
    I would suggest the rational use of money and, of course, other resources with a little bit of :heart: thrown in for good measure (xin). A pipe dream? Possibly, but it feels so right!Agent Smith

    Good point, brother Smith! It's not money that's evil but the people that are nefarious. Money can set free and enslave, dependent on the users. It's just a universal guaranteed barter object.
  • Agent Smith
    9.5k
    brother SmithHillary

    :snicker:
  • Vincent
    95
    1. Sometimes, the tool is the problem. Fossil fuel based engines for example.Agent Smith
    We can use this problem as a solution. We can use these engines to build more environmentally friendly engines. Oil supplies are also running out. So we can use these old technologies to develop new technologies.
    2. Sometimes, the tool user is the problem. Replace money with x. Money has been removed, but people are the same. The problem will resurface immediately or later, but it will resurface.Agent Smith

    Indeed. Just after an industrial revolution, everyone is happy and enthusiastic. But after a while new problems will arise and so a new industrial revolution is needed. After every industrial revolution (or war) there is a more unification of the system in the world. I think it goes on and on and on until we're all-knowing and have come up with a system that's really perfect.
  • Agent Smith
    9.5k
    :ok:

    Progress! Reminds me of Gödel's incompleteness theorems: In system x1, problem p1 arises. We then develop system x2 to solve problem p1. What happens next is that system x2 has a new problem p2. A new system x3 is needed which will have its very own problem p3...ad nausesum :vomit:
  • Vincent
    95
    Money can set free and enslave, dependent on the users.Hillary
    Indeed. But the problem is that the money system gives the opportunity to enslave a population. As long as there is money in the world, there will always be people who will misuse it to oppress. Without money, people are less likely to do so. We all want to be free, right?
  • Vincent
    95
    Never heard of it. But yes, I think that's how the world works. I call it the law of conservation of hassle. :razz:
    The problem is that people see the current system as 'normal'. People don't want to change until they see the problem. So one must be forced. I think that's what Putin is trying to do now.
  • universeness
    6.3k
    where has that been tried?Vincent

    You might be interested in sites like:
    https://singularityhub.com/2020/05/18/here-are-the-results-of-the-biggest-universal-basic-income-trial-yet/

    There have been many many local trials of UBI systems. As I stated, its popularity as a concept is growing. 71% of all Europeans are claimed to support UBI.
  • Vincent
    95
    Glad you agree with me. I think that's the most logical thing there is. The money has to go.

    I will read it, thanks
  • Agent Smith
    9.5k
    Never heard of it. But yes, I think that's how the world works. I call it the law of conservation of hassle. :razz:
    The problem is that people see the current system as 'normal'. People don't want to change until they see the problem. So one must be forced. I think that's what Putin is trying to do now.
    Vincent

    We need good ideas, really good ideas and soon! The Doomsday Clock is ticking and I believe, unlike garden variety clocks, it makes sudden jumps: One minute it's all sunshine and rainbows, the next minute it's the friggin' apocalypse!

    Your attempt here will go down in history! :smile:

    Here's food for thought: An planet-killer asterioid on a collision course with earth can be dealt in 3 ways (there maybe more).

    1. Blow it to smithereens
    2. Deflect it
    3. Slow it down

    Options, options, we need options, fast!
  • Hillary
    1.9k
    71% of all Europeans are claimed to support UBI.universeness

    There is an old saying, "There are truths, there are lies, and there are statistics"...

    But the problem is that the money system gives the opportunity to enslave a populationVincent

    Dunno... I think basically all human inventions have that property.
  • Vincent
    95
    I think basically all human inventions have that property.Hillary

    Indeed. Everything can be used or abused. But money is above everything and thus is the greatest source of oppression
  • universeness
    6.3k
    Glad you agree with me. I think that's the most logical thing there is. The money has to go.Vincent

    I do agree with you on getting rid of the concept of money but I also want to point out that this has been a goal of socialism since its inception. It's a very old idea!
    'To secure for the workers by hand or by brain, the full fruits of their industry and control over the means of production, distribution and exchange.'
    UBIs provide more economic balance but won't get rid of money.
    Money is fast becoming reduced to numbers which go up at the end of each month in your bank account and then the total goes down over the month as direct debits come off or you use card payments such as contactless. This shows that currency could currently be replaced by 'credits' to and debits from your account. At the moment for too many people however, the debits are bigger than the credits.
  • Hillary
    1.9k
    1. Blow it to smithereens
    2. Deflect it
    3. Slow it down

    Options, options, we need options, fast!
    Agent Smith

    If the asteroid stand for the train of "progress", heading for the abyss while accelerating (so one metaphor for another!) we should stop the acceleration. We could sabotage the loc or nuke the asteroid. Which will have unwanted consequences but armageddon can be send home. No longer needed. Or maybe we should abandon the armageddon idea. Armageddon could actually be a self-fulfilling prophecy... :rofl:
  • universeness
    6.3k
    There is an old saying, "There are truths, there are lies, and there are statistics"...Hillary

    I think you are trying for 'lies, damned lies and statistics' atributed to Mark Twain who claimed it was stated by British prime minister Benjamin Disraeli. It is a very important 'checkpoint,' that people should consider, so I agree with the general 'pause and consider,' point you suggest.
  • Agent Smith
    9.5k
    You talk funny! :snicker: I thought I was the only one!
  • Hillary
    1.9k
    But money is above everything and thus is the greatest source of oppressionVincent

    Then it's not money that has to go, but the idea it's above everything. It's treated like a god nowadays. "Money makes the world go round"? No way!
  • Vincent
    95
    1: is not an option, because then a meteor shower will take place all over the world. Thousands of other problems will arise.
    2: is possible I think by controlling the magnetic effect of objects and the earth. But we don't have the knowledge and technology for that yet. A new industrial revolution is needed first to tackle the real problems.
    3: postponement of execution is not an option
    4: Abolish money and change people's interests from greed to the real problems like an asteroid or climate change. When the money is gone, the solution will come.
  • universeness
    6.3k
    Options, options, we need options, fastAgent Smith

    Here's a good old suggestion:
    'United we stand divided we fall.'
    'People of the world UNITE!'

    If we work together we can stop even rogue asteroids!
    If we are distracted by shit such as rich vs poor, white vs not-white, male vs female, science vs woo woo, old vs young, etc then we will be unable to deal with and prevent autocracy/plutocracy/aristocracy/cult of celebrity/ cult of personality/ general nefarious b******* and rogue asteroids!
  • Hillary
    1.9k
    I think you are trying for 'lies, damned lies and statisticsuniverseness

    That's the one! So 71% doesn't mean a lot. They didn't ask me bout UBI!
  • Agent Smith
    9.5k
    A bit too radical for my taste but these are desperate times...desperate measures in order!
  • Vincent
    95
    'United we stand divided we fall.'
    'People of the world UNITE!
    universeness

    exactly, now everyone is divided, so we will fall. After the fall, everyone will unite. But then there will also be a lot of tears
  • Hillary
    1.9k
    If we work together we can stop even rogue asteroids!
    If we are distracted by shit such as rich vs poor, white vs not-white, male vs female, science vs woo woo
    universeness

    I agree almost with all of this. I don't see though why should stand together to form a front againsts woowoo in favor of science, as science itself contains the woowoo just as well. Woowoo is liberating!
  • universeness
    6.3k
    That's the one! So 71% doesn't mean a lot. They didn't ask me bout UBI!Hillary

    Aw! :sad:
    They did ask me! I voted for it! and I passed the email to all my friends and family as requested.
  • universeness
    6.3k
    A bit too radical for my tasteAgent Smith

    Which part do you consider too radical? Uniting in common cause with global humanity?
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