They found freedom from servitude in profit-making. Their markets became cities. They tore down Christianity and built back a version that accepted them as being just as human as the nobility.
It wasn't about efficiency. It was about becoming human. — frank
Merely pointing out, as Frank does, the preponderance of finance is meaningless if it not recognized that the financial house of cards is built upon the ever more thinning foundation of an economy that still needs people to eat and not be dead. — Streetlight
This is utter nonsense. — frank
Oh good, coming from you, this means I am exactly correct. — Streetlight
You can't really define or understand capitalism unless you look at what its original proponents intended it to replace. — ASmallTalentForWar
The argument against slavery that Lincoln typified was not essentially moral but based in capitalism. — ASmallTalentForWar
Intentions are really quite irrelevant in the face of reality. But really, I do agree with most of what you're saying. I guess I'm not sure how it is meant to function as a response to what I wrote? — Streetlight
Do you have an example of Lincoln expressing this perspective? Specifically the free labor angle. — frank
The prudent, penniless beginner in the world, labors for wages awhile, saves a surplus with which to buy tools or land, for himself; then labors on his own account another while, and at length hires another new beginner to help him. This, say its advocates, is free labor – the just and generous, and prosperous system, which opens the way for all – gives hope to all, and energy, and progress, and improvement of condition to all. If any continue through life in the condition of the hired laborer, it is not the fault of the system, but because of either a dependent nature which prefers it, or improvidence, folly, or singular misfortune. — Abraham Lincoln
So, capitalism was inherently associated with early ideas of liberalism where individuals could make choices that were not constrained by the aristocratic society. It is an expression of social philosophy, and not primarily economic. — ASmallTalentForWar
And where does he condemn slavery specifically because free laborers have to compete with slaves? — frank
But this is quite wrong. Capitalism can only take root where it's conditions of reproduction can be secured. And those conditions are material, and not ideational. Liberalism's ascendency was a reflection of the growing and real power of the bourgeoisie in society who did indeed feel constarined by the fetters of feudalism. The articulation of liberalism was an effort to express that in ideational form. — Streetlight
Nevertheless, the free soil and free labor movement are what put him in power and eventually what won the civil war. — ASmallTalentForWar
However, even where capitalism can take root, it does not do so without the liberal ideology to support it. — ASmallTalentForWar
Says who? I mean, sure, capitalists retroactively justify their class position with all sorts of fairy tales, but the fairy tales do not preceed those class positions. — Streetlight
But that is not capitalism in the ideal sense. — ASmallTalentForWar
I'm not concerned with 'capitalism in the ideal sense'. A red herring, ignorable forever. — Streetlight
This is what gave him the advantage in his pursuit of the presidency. — ASmallTalentForWar
The abolition of slavery was essentially an economic necessity — ASmallTalentForWar
Lincoln was a moderate in this sense and his principles aligned with theirs — ASmallTalentForWar
This is what gave him the advantage in his pursuit of the presidency.
— ASmallTalentForWar
No, the Southern Democrats walked out of the 1859 Democratic National Convention and subsequently ran their own candidate, splitting pro-slavery vote. That's how Lincoln won.
The abolition of slavery was essentially an economic necessity
— ASmallTalentForWar
No, the Dred Scott decision promised to nationalize slavery, and the wisdom of the time was that once this happened slavery would never be uprooted from the USA.
Lincoln was a moderate in this sense and his principles aligned with theirs
— ASmallTalentForWar
Lincoln made his principles known. He believed that slavery was a threat to the vision of the free society. Once people get used to someone else doing their work for them, they lose sight of the meaning of freedom. — frank
However, that is the only "real" version of capitalism available. It's like baseball. I can tell you all the rules involved in the game, but knowing every last detail of the rules of the game will not tell you anything about how an actual game will turn out.
So, do you want to play a game of baseball (or watch one) or know how the game is played? That is essentially the problem of defining capitalism. What happens on the field is not going to match perfectly to the rule book. — ASmallTalentForWar
How did Lincoln get into the position so that the split vote gave him the advantage? — ASmallTalentForWar
The free society to Lincoln essentially meant free labor. — ASmallTalentForWar
I don't know what you are talking about. — Streetlight
That's incorrect. It meant social mobility. — frank
Mobility by what process other than the fruits of one's labor? — ASmallTalentForWar
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