"Stirring" is here an adjective, not a verb. Good philosophers, of course, are never caught merely "stirring words". — Bitter Crank
Marx's description is abstract; millions-- hell, billions of people are, by Marx's definition alienated and it doesn't feel good. The alienated worker is insecure (he can be abruptly laid off. — Bitter Crank
I still don't think you have an alienated worker if he thinks he's not — Hanover
The unalienated worker isn't just an anomaly to look upon curiously, but he poses an alternate solution to the Marxist, which is that we needn't dismantle and reconstruct the system with the proletariat in charge, but we need only reproduce the conditions to other workers that our unalienated worker has found. — Hanover
schopenhauer1's antinatalist logic is valid. Life sucks, and having children perpetuates life's suckiness. I agree that life sucks, but not so much that no body should have more children. Similarly, I agree that many people do not seem to be alienated from their work, their product--whatever that is, be it nuts and bolts or legal services. — Bitter Crank
"Managing to get through one's day without going berserk" is not an endorsement of the existing system. Workers' vision becomes much clearer when they experience the harsh side of capitalism, the side where there is no negotiation towards a tolerable middle ground. It is also the case that capitalism works very hard to portray itself positively. The positive portrait is the one hanging in most Americans' living room. — Bitter Crank
Not only are we slaves, we're all slaves from the same series, for we react the same to the same stimulus! Yay.
(The term "robot" comes from the Slavic root for 'forced labor'.) — baker
Life sucks — Bitter Crank
At the same time, I must acknowledge that your observation about people who do not think they are alienated (in Marx's sense) reflects reality for many. Capitalists and workers have negotiated back and forth to reach a tolerable middle ground. — Bitter Crank
The idea that it cannot be or should not be questioned is what I question. — schopenhauer1
We are slaves to our material existence and survival requires work. How we choose to emotionally respond to that reality is our choice. — Hanover
Of course survival and material acquisition are only the rudimentary elements of our existence, and I would only buy into the generally pessimistic view that life is a series of harsh experiences followed by an unceremonial death if that's all there was. — Hanover
If you know a way to get the food to jump on the plate, I'm all ears. — Hanover
Or is it that some people have simply adapted sufficiently to the capitalist system, or even that they are somehow genetically or otherwise predisposed to function well in it, while others are not? — baker
We are slaves to our material existence and survival requires work. How we choose to emotionally respond to that reality is our choice. — Hanover
and that this would result in further unalienated workers.we need only reproduce the conditions to other workers that our unalienated worker has found — Hanover
Or maybe work isn't where they look for meaning. — Hanover
The holiest day of the week is sabbath, the day of day. Metaphorically speaking, of course.
we need shit done and we need people to follow dictates of organizations to do the shit — schopenhauer1
yet here we are, being punished. — schopenhauer1
yet here I am, being punished. — schopenhauer1
Forcing you into a game and telling you to play better is not an answer, just a dodge. — schopenhauer1
It's a disturbing number, to say the least.
According to just-released data by Gallup, only 13 percent of employees are "engaged" in their jobs, or emotionally invested in their work and focused on helping their organizations improve.
The data, which are based on nationally representative polling samples in 2011 and 2012 from more than 140 countries, show that 63 percent are "not engaged"—or simply unmotivated and unlikely to exert extra effort—while the remaining 24 percent are "actively disengaged," or truly unhappy and unproductive.
While that's discouraging, it's actually a little better than the last time Gallup issued a global report. In data collected in 2009 and 2010, just 11 percent of workers reported being invested in their jobs, while 27 percent had actively checked out. The small improvement is due to an upswing in the global economy since those two recession years, when unemployment rates were even worse and when people were even more likely to settle for jobs they didn't like because options were so limited. — Washington Post Article
So let's think of different things.. We have the Marxist model of taking over resources and capital. What does that really look like though? I brought this up in another thread about how we can never know even a sliver of the technology that we rely upon. So there will still be "experts", and access to the capital will then have to go through the de facto "gatekeepers" of the knowledgeable. I use a computer, It relies on circuit boards, programming, monitors, electrical components, etc. It relies on materials, plastics, etc. All of which I have no idea about.. So I am stuck in my "realm of expertise".. Whatever that is. Only that is what I can effect, not the whole. So basically I run things by democratically led councils rather than managers.. And I don't know, things just start looking more of the same. I don't see alienation going away any time soon. — schopenhauer1
The unalienated employee leaps gladsomely into the air, and sings a roundelay having to do with not being estranged — Ciceronianus
Do we need Marxism for this non-estrangement to come about? — schopenhauer1
Do we need Marxism for this non-estrangement to come about? — schopenhauer1
Marxist alienation is when a person lives contrary to human nature. I think. — Tate
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