I would say that Bloch’s idea of hope, without making hope an exact aim, has its root on Heraclitus’ idea that everything is becoming. Heraclitus’ idea is very primordial, of course, but then there is Heidegger saying that being should be conceived strictly connected to time: what is being and time other than, essentially, becoming? Obviously, Heidegger’ philosophy is much closer to humanity. Heidegger’s being towards death seems quite the opposite of Bloch’s hope, but I think the Heidegger’s idea about death is not an essential pessimism; rather, it is humanity.
We shouldn’t ask Bloch what to hope for, because, since it is quite a basic and abstract principle, it must remain rather undefined. But we can ask: why hope? I would say: because it is already in our humanity. If we cultivate it, we are just developing something already working inside us. We just need to build better criterions to make it fruitful as much as possible.

Ernst Bloch — Tate

I don't have much to contribute here but I have the book in my library and enjoy picking it up from time to time. I hope I can devote more time to it in the future. Good to know it's still read. :smile:

don't have much to contribute here but I have the book in my library and enjoy picking it up from time to time — ZzzoneiroCosm

You could absorb the ideas through your fingers.

Two takeaways I saw were:

1. Utopia is not a prize at the end of the journey. It's the journey itself.

2. When you have flashes of world that could be, you're witnessing what could be, but is not yet. You're part of the way that vision comes I to being, with everything you do and say.

When you have flashes of world that could be, you're witnessing what could be, but is not yet. — Tate

It's my view that the Utopian vision is central to psychospiritual growth.


Not much else to say. Maybe I'll spend some time with the book this summer and have something more to contribute.

It'll be interesting to see if there are any others on the forum who've taken an interest in his work.

"There is an infinite amount of hope in the universe ... but not for us." ~Franz Kafka

Hope is an absurd (imaginary) response to fear. Courage is the absurdist (performative) response to fear. The latter overcomes 'the utopian consolations' (temptations) of the former.

"There is an infinite amount of hope in the universe ...
but not for us." ~Franz Kafka

↪Tate Hope is an absurd (imaginary) response to fear. Courage is the absurdist (performative) response to fear. The latter overcomes 'the utopian consolations' (temptations) of the former. — 180 Proof

Depressing! :groan:

In my humble opinion, hope is an indispensable part of trust which itself is integral to society's very existence.

We've managed, to some extent, outgrow these, unfortunately, extremely unreliable social entities (hope and trust), preferring instead to adopt interactions among ourselves such as tit-for-tat and/or quid pro quo, very effective methods of keeping us all living together in peace and harmony as it were.

Society, despite appearances, isn't built on cooperation as I once thought; it is kept intact by being open/candid about how untrustworthy and how misplaced our hope is.

Nevertheless, being hopeful and trusting still give us that warm, fuzzy feeling we encounter in the numinous, the sublime; it is, in that sense, divine in nature (In God we trust). We mustn't neglect it, we must cultivate, we must respect and honor it; this ain't easy, the journey will be a litany of disappointments and failures, but there's an unspoken/unwritten rule that states if it's hard, it's good.

In my humble opinion, hope is an indispensable part of trust which itself is integral to society's very existence. — Agent Smith

"Trust, but verify." ~Ronald Reagan

"Trust, but verify." ~Ronald Reagan — 180 Proof

That's the kinda talk that separates the wheat from the chaff! :fire:

Hope is an absurd (imaginary) response to fear — 180 Proof

Bloch would agree, I think. He was addressing a world in which anxiety had turned to fear that was close at hand (post Nazi Germany). Imagination was definitely the tool for dealing with it.

is the absurdist (performative) response to fear. The latter overcomes 'the utopian consolations' (temptations) of the former. — 180 Proof

For Bloch, utopia is a journey, not a place. It means being engaged.

Interesting. Clarification appreciated.

But wasn't Das Tausendjährige Reich also an "utopian" project? :brow:

For Bloch, utopia is a journey, not a place. It means being engaged. — Tate

This is inspiration to spend more time with this unusual book.

Would you be willing to expand on the notion of utopia-as-engagement? As a generalization, it would likely include, say, a mass murderer plotting his bloodbath. His would be a state of profound engagement.

For Bloch, utopia is a journey, not a place. It means being engaged. — Tate

I have volumes one and two. I wonder if you have a reference for this idea. Thanks!

Would you be willing to expand on the notion of utopia-as-engagement? As a generalization, it would likely include, say, a mass murderer plotting his bloodbath. His would be a state of profound engagement. — ZzzoneiroCosm

He was a Marxist, so he was specifically thinking of political engagement. He thought it was a mistake for Marxism to become disengaged like society's useless appendix.

But I'm not an expert on Bloch at all. In fact while reading about him, I ended up down a rabbit hole of Jakob Bohme.

Jakob Bohme. — Tate

His is a fine rabbit hole to spelunk.

political engagement. — Tate

gotcha

But wasn't Das Tausendjährige Reich also a "utopian" project? :brow: — 180 Proof

"Speer, du bist ein groß Architect. Tausende Stunden haben wir verpasst mit dieser herrliche Macquete. Keine Wolkenkratzer oder Hotels, aber ein Mttelpunkt. Ein Schatzzimmer voll Kultur. Das Volk braucht so ein Mittelpunkt. Diese Macqette zeigt wie es sein soll. Ein große Dom ins Mitten. Marmor Palazzen mit Kunst und Kultur. Das Germania für kommende tausend Jahr. Das ist mein Traum und das bleibt mein Traum!"

"Speer, you are a great architect. We missed thousands of hours with this magnificent Macquette. No skyscrapers or hotels, but a center. A treasure room full of culture. The people need such a center. This Macquette shows how it should be. A big one Cathedral in the middle. Marble palaces with art and culture. The Germania for the coming thousand years. That is my dream and that will remain my dream!"

Macquette - French - "scale model"


Courtesy of Google translate


Berthold Konrad Hermann Albert Speer (/ʃpɛər/; German: [ˈʃpeːɐ̯] (listen); 19 March 1905 – 1 September 1981) was a German architect who served as the Minister of Armaments and War Production in Nazi Germany during most of World War II. A close ally of Adolf Hitler, he was convicted at the Nuremberg trials and sentenced to 20 years in prison.

wiki

Exactly! Saw it in "der Untergang". Not the exact words. But more or less. The thousand year Reich...

But wasn't Das Tausendjährige Reich also a "utopian" project? — 180 Proof

Absolutely. The purity of the Utopian Light at times points to genocidal cleansing as the fast track to heaven. An ugliest Marriage of Heaven and Hell.

The purity of the Utopian Light at times points to genocidal cleansing — ZzzoneiroCosm

The Purifying Utopian Light used to Cleanse the dirt... To wipe it away with Zyclon B, the final solution in the final Wannsee analysis. To be applied in a refreshing shower...

Jesus Fucking Christ and Mother Mary... What image... :scream: :death:

Indeed heaven and hell in an unlucky marriage.

Absolutely. The purity of the Utopian Light at times points to genocidal cleansing as the fast track to heaven. An ugliest Marriage of Heaven and Hell. — ZzzoneiroCosm

Maybe that's what happens when all hope for redeeming this world is lost. The only way for the world to be made right is to destroy it all and make it over.

The catastrophe that transports the faithful to a new earth. Apocalypse Now.

Maybe that's what happens when all hope for redeeming this world is lost. — Tate

I enjoyed the video in the OP. Thanks.

There’s a reliance in the video on a specific form of hope that, tmk, remains unmentioned.

There’s the hope for increased happiness via increased quantity of peace, love, and understanding among humankind. The aim being more akin to a utopia obtained via means of democratic rule: a self-sustained, relatively stable, global community that is devoid of authoritarian governance sort of thing.

Then there’s hope of increased happiness via increased status of top dog over all other(s), or of being under the auspices of such. Here the aim being more akin to a utopia obtained via means of autocratic rule ... of which the Nazi ideology was a quite poignant example of - as for that matter was/is the Stalinist perversions of communism as philosophy.

We of our own impetus often cynically snide at hope for the first outcome, both personally and collectively. And this breads hope for the second. Needless to add, this at the detriment of the former.

Thought this appropriate (A Perfect Circle: "(what's so funny 'bout) peace love and understanding"):

The only way for the world to be made right is to destroy it all and make it over. — Tate

Nah. We'd likely start all over from bacteria, again moving forward evolutionary through pains and pleasures, only to arrive at the same crossroads we are living in today as a species of sapient beings. Better to aim forward. :wink:

We of our own impetus often cynically snide at hope for the first outcome, both personally and collectively. And this breads hope for the second. Needless to add, this at the detriment of the former. — javra

True. Part of the power of fascism is that it's rooted in myth and it discredits reason. Dry Marxism can't compete. It seems more reasonable to people to expect fascism than to hope for leftism.

Bloch is starting to fascinate me because he dove into religion and fairy tales as part of "practicing utopia."

Nah. We'd likely start all over from bacteria, again moving forward evolutionary through pains and pleasures, only to arrive at the same crossroads we are living in today as a species of sapient beings. Better to aim forward — javra

I was just paraphrasing despair: when the only door to hope is giving up.

The Spirit of Utopia:

PDF version

Bloch was a staunch supporter of Stalin up until Kruschev's denouncement of the monster.

Somehow that's part of his philosophy of hope, isn't it?

Hope, to my reckoning, is how we respond to/deal with uncertainty; it usually consists of ethical expectations (I hope she's fine) but not necessarily so (I hope the guard doesn't notice us). The OP is, in all likelihood, about hope of the former kind (good hope) and not the latter (bad hope).

Hope then is a mashup of quasi-fatalism (we don't control all aspects of our lives) + optimism (success is ensured).

'Hope' is just lipstick on a nightmare.

Hope' is just lipstick on a nightmare. — 180 Proof

You don't hope for anything?

You don't hope for anything? — Tate

Hope or Cope? :snicker:

I try not to, especially in Bloch's sense.