You say, "good evidence can verify supernatural occurrences."
I ask, "what would 'good evidence' be?" — javra
I ask, "can you provide a viable test for anything supernatural?" — javra
Good evidence for me would be something like my dad's thumb being brought back (he lost it 60 years ago). Or my mum coming back to life. Not repeatable or rigorous, scientific evidence, but it would do me. — Tom Storm
But the question for any such event is what precisely does it establish, apart from the extraordinary nature of the event? — Tom Storm
We can attribute remarkable events to religion or some occult cosmology but there is no necessary connection. — Tom Storm
I ask, "can you provide a viable test for anything supernatural?" — javra
You tell me. If you want to discuss science methods with someone I'm not your guy. — Tom Storm
It would establish that there's more to the universe than meets the eye; in this one case, that clairvoyance can occur. — javra
As contrasted to a necessary connection to an atheistic materialism in which no such events can occur. — javra
As a reminder, I've already affirmed my position on this: no such tests are feasible. — javra
The supernatural would be some aspect of reality that is apart from the rational/regular nature of the natural world, not merely an unsolved mystery of the natural world. — Relativist
There is a good reason why we don't consider dark matter to be a supernatural phenomenon. The ability of particles not to reflect light, or generating pulling forces in the universe are basic properties displayed by particles. We just need to investigate the ontology of those physical phenomena.Consider that we don't know what dark matter is, but no knowledgeable person would label it as supernatural.
I haven't said they 'can't occur' (how could that be demonstrated?) just that we can't say they have occurred. — Tom Storm
That was a cool discussion. Thanks. — Tom Storm
... there can be no (universally recognizable) proof either for or against the reality of supernatural claims as we know them. — javra
Thus, they are indistinguishable from fictions. — 180 Proof
I gather then that we agree there can be no (universally recognizable) proof either for or against the reality of supernatural claims as we know them. — javra
Are UFO's supernatural claims? — Tom Storm
If a faith healer were to raise the dead and restore amputated limbs in good numbers, I would say we would have warrant to believe that something supernatural has taken place. — Tom Storm
Besides, there are no supernatural claims that I know of which purport the restoration of amputated limbs — javra
I'm saying that they're epistemologically indistinguishable from supernatural claims. Belief in neither can be definitely evidenced either true or false given the tools we currently have at out disposal. — javra
In part. Would you not think that if a UFO arrived on earth, (say on top of the capitol building) with aliens pouring out of it we would very quickly have sufficient warrant? Would not replicability and testability be superfluous? — Tom Storm
I'm saying that they're epistemologically indistinguishable from supernatural claims. Belief in neither can be definitely evidenced either true or false given the tools we currently have at out disposal. — javra
In part. Would you not think that if a UFO arrived on earth, (say on top of the capitol building) with aliens pouring out of it we would very quickly have sufficient warrant? Would not replicability and testability be superfluous? — Tom Storm
Right. So what is the epistemological difference (the "in part" aspect) between claims of the supernatural and claims of extraterrestrial intelligence? — javra
Even if the supernatural is true this does not mean that every claim is true. People can still have hallucinations, mental illness, drug induced episodes, be hypnotised, mistaken or in some other way mistaken. — Tom Storm
Right. So what is the epistemological difference (the "in part" aspect) between claims of the supernatural and claims of extraterrestrial intelligence? — javra
Are we debating this? Probably none. — Tom Storm
Je n'avais pas besoin de cette hypothèse-là (I had no need of that hypothesis). — Pierre-Simon Laplace
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