Yes, speaking figuratively, but nonetheless truly. — Wayfarer
A pimp approaches you, courts you, makes you feel beautiful, makes you feel a way that other men haven't made you feel before. What's your next move? — Noble Dust
Or, alternatively, the simple (more accurate) portrayal of sex workers as women who have "no better prospects". — Noble Dust
But you're missing a key factor here; sex work often involves an element of manipulation, and sexual manipulation tends to be deeper and more emotionally scarring than, for instance, a simple workplace situation of "we know you signed up to dig holes, but we need to you excavate some caverns" (horrible, off the top of my head example). — Noble Dust
The former just requires more skill; the second requires an intensification of human intimacy which the worker may not be prepared for. An 18 year old girl getting lured into the business of sex work is a different situation than a basic dude without much prospects trying to figure out if he should work in the factory or as a custodian. The 18 year old guy without much prospects (but plenty of muscle and testosterone) has way more social potential within the work force to begin at an entry level factory/etc job, and then, if he applies himself, move up into higher paying jobs, all the while, offering his simple physical labor for a decent wage. As a side note, he's surely less susceptible (though not immune) to sexual harassment all throughout this process. This is not analogous to women being lured into the business of sex work. At this point, Sapentia will cackle out something about "you really think all female porn stars are lured into porn work? I just spat up my diet coke reading that." Not exactly, no. But take a second, and try practicing some empathy here. Imagine yourself as an 18 year old woman, a 21 year old woman, or whatever. You don't have much prospects. You know you have the body that guys want. You have an average straight female sexuality, (read: much different than straight male sexuality...I really shouldn't need to spell that out, but I start to wonder); maybe you're bi-curious even, just to be progressive. Now, you've just graduated high school, or there abouts. Where are your parents? What's there influence on your life at this point? So anyway, at this point, you're either aware that you can go into the sex business, or you're not aware. If you're aware, what are your feelings about this option? I'm not telling you what they should be; I'm suggesting that you put yourself in her shoes and imagine (wait, this isn't philosophy! Damn you, Noble Dust. You sentimental dilettante). Ok, now you're not aware that sex work is an option. A pimp approaches you, courts you, makes you feel beautiful, makes you feel a way that other men haven't made you feel before. What's your next move? — Noble Dust
You should recognise that your assessment of such things is from the perspective of a subject interpreting events, and may well be biased. — Sapientia
You most likely do not have access to all of the facts or intricacies involved. — Sapientia
But again, it ultimately boils down to personal responsibility. If you allow yourself to cave in, consent, and go through with something that you're not really comfortable doing, and do not really want to do, then you're culpable to some extent. — Sapientia
From what I've read, the pornography business doesn't operate the same way that prostitution operates. — Bitter Crank
Most of these businesses operate in the San Fernando Valley area of L.A. They are legal businesses. Prostitution operates everywhere; it is not a legal business (except in Nevada, at least in the U.S.) — Bitter Crank
What have you read on this? I'd be interested to read it as well. — Noble Dust
I'm more concerned that porn and prostitution may have a link — Noble Dust
I'm more concerned that porn and prostitution may have a link — Noble Dust
People are never objects, not even when someone else is looking at them for pleasure. — TheWillowOfDarkness
To find someone attractive, look at them and feel aroused or desire to have sex with them is NOT objectification. There is simply never an object present, only a person. When sexual desire involves others, whether for sex or just entertainment, a person wants other people.
The mere object which brings sexual arousal doesn't exist. When watching porn, it's people getting us off, not a mere object of a hot body doing sexy things. — TheWillowOfDarkness
That argument makes no sense. If coercion is wrong, it doesn't matter if your eighteen or thirty-five or a hundred. You are treating coercion like it's the victim's responsibility, as if it were a "mistake" they made and so it's fine for it to happen. — TheWillowOfDarkness
Sure; we all should, including yourself. There's no way to assess anything other than as a subject interpreting events. — Noble Dust
Again, no one does. This isn't an argument. — Noble Dust
When someone manipulates another person, how is the victim culpable? Resistance to manipulation stems from personal autonomy, not personal responsibility. Personal responsibility is on a spectrum based on a person's level of autonomy. A mentally handicapped adult without much autonomy doesn't have the same responsibility of a mentally healthy adult, for instance. The ability of people to be autonomous individuals varies widely, based on a bunch of factors, and their level of expected personal responsibility stems from that. — Noble Dust
But people can be, and often are, used as a means to an end, and this is often quite ordinary and not immoral. There was the example given of the musician for hire, and there are plenty of other examples which could be given. Those who object in this particular case of porn actors need to explain why this is some sort of special exception. — Sapientia
One does not watch porn (if they are non-objectifying and ethical) just to, as you crudely put it, to "get off." They do so to engage in a mutual interaction which benefits both their well-being (which includes, in most instances, getting off) and the well-being of any actors involved. — TheWillowOfDarkness
Well, ultimately, yes. But there's more to it than that. For example, there's a big difference between what some guy on a philosophy forum happens to think, and the kind of investigation carried out by the police. — Sapientia
You should recognise that your assessment of such things is from the perspective of a subject interpreting events, and may well be biased. — Sapientia
It's not a matter of all or nothing, it's a matter of the extent to which we have knowledge or evidence, and, with regards to the latter, its strength. It's about the difference between what might largely amount to speculation and views firmly grounded upon evidence. — Sapientia
I was speaking more in general. Generally, you'd be responsible for what you consent to. — Sapientia
Objectification is ignoring that others are people whose well-being is important, in favour of understanding and using them as objects to achieve your desire. — TheWillowOfDarkness
The problem is when understanding and concern for another person are not present, when someone understands an exchange between two people is only about getting what they desire. In pornography and sex, this means considering other people, their desires, their well-being, rather than just arousal, activity or entertainment someone wants for themselves. — TheWillowOfDarkness
If someone is looking for a hookup, it means not just searching for someone who says "Yes," but someone else who wants to have sex with them. The goal is not for them to "get some." It's to engage in an act which benefits the well-being of someone else.
The same is true of pornography. If someone is producing or watching pornography, they ought to be concerned about the well-being of the people involved. Yes, the pornography is about making money (for the producer) and feeding desire (for viewers), but it's also (if people are ethical) about the well-being of people performing it. Both the producer and viewer ought to understand pornography is not just about making money or obtaining pleasure, but an expression of the well being of the performers.
One does not watch porn (if they are non-objectifying and ethical) just to, as you crudely put it, to "get off." They do so to engage in a mutual interaction which benefits both their well-being (which includes, in most instances, getting off) and the well-being of any actors involved. Just as hookups are defined by finding someone else whose well-being benefits, producing or watching pornography (as least the ethical sort) is about benefiting the well-being of someone else (the performers involved).
So the question here isn't legal. The law is frequently a blunt instrument. It simply can't deal with the range of issues and understanding which come in human relationships. Ethics is what matter to us.
Instead of making "bad faith" arguments that "the law says..." or "but they chose it..," we can think deeper. We can consider the other person and their well-being, rather than just what the law allows us to do and how we can manipulate the situation to gain the most personal benefit. At certain points we can say, when we recognise the other people we are dealing with: "Well, that is legal, and they might of said "yes," but in circumstances their well-being isn't going to benefit. This action I'm about considering will cause them harm, despite it being legal and them agreeing to it. It's my ethical responsibly not to harm them, even it means giving up what I want." — TheWillowOfDarkness
So are you critiquing my response here, or critiquing your own statement? — Noble Dust
Where did I suggest an all or nothing attitude, and what "firmly grounded" evidence can you provide for your views about porn in this context? — Noble Dust
I don't think a general case of an 18 year old woman going into the porn business would be analogous to a general example of personal responsibility (what does that even mean?).
In other words, what exactly amounts to general here? — Noble Dust
In general, people are responsible for their actions. — Sapientia
Jacking off to porn is jacking off to porn - however you rephrase it (e.g. by using terms such as "personal expression" or something along those lines, which may give a different impression. I may put it crudely, but I believe in straight talking) — Sapientia
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