I would make the story about an accidental fall into authenticity by way of a catastrophe.

I would make the story about an accidental fall into authenticity by way of a catastrophe — Tate

I can't speak to authenticity writ large, but there's no question the catastrophic has played a decisive role in my personal quest for the authentic self. It was the catastrophic that awakened my heart and mind to the need for revolt (against neurotic parents; against a neurotic society); and to the need for deeper and deeper self-probing and self-evaluation: the chief precursors of psychic change.

So I'm not sure if I want to read that book again. I read it some years ago and too many times. Yes, I do believe that one can go through a personal Apocalypse. And find enlightenment. Whatever that means.

Okay, let's give it a try.

Can we see the Book of Revelation a.k.a. Apocalypse as an explanation for the evolution of Earth consciousness?

personal Apocalypse — Kevin Tan

:chin: Fractal?

Lol, my brother is the mathematician. I don't know what fractals are. I guess what I mean is going through all the feelings & emotions in the book of Apocalypse. And then putting the book aside and realizing you're OK. :)

Lol, my brother is the mathematician. I don't know what fractals are. I guess what I mean is going through all the feelings & emotions in the book of Apocalypse. And then putting the book aside and realizing you're OK. :) — Kevin Tan

Destruction occurs at all scales - what is an apocalypse but death albeit at a grander scale, people die every day!

That is the common conception of the book of Apocalypse. But it is mostly about Jesus Christ. However, it is written in a very cryptic, allegorical and metaphorical way. Not denying the aspects of death and destruction. There's just more in there than that.

That is the common conception of the book of Apocalypse. But it is mostly about Jesus Christ. However, it is written in a very cryptic, allegorical and metaphorical way. Not denying the aspects of death and destruction. There's just more in there than that. — Kevin Tan

Rorschach test!

the evolution of Earth consciousness? — Kevin Tan

What do you mean by the evolution of Earth consciousness?

The way that the collective consciousness of planet Earth evolves. LOL :)

That is absolutely amazing and fascinating. I will get back to you about this Rorschach Test!

That is absolutely amazing and fascinating. I will get back to you about this Rorschach Test! — Kevin Tan

Glad I was helpful! Not sarcasm I hope.

No, certainly not. I have a long history of psychology and psychiatry. This changes my opinion for the positive. Thank you

Thoughts? — ZzzoneiroCosm

This may sound like a flip and supercilious comment (and I don't mean it to be) but why bother? Why apply psychological readings to anything and to what end? Do you need to be 'overcome' or be 'improved' in some way?

Also, my cat is absolutely fascinated by this TED-video about the Rorschach Test.

https://youtu.be/LYi19-Vx6go

Do you need to be 'overcome' or 'improved' in some way? — Tom Storm

I do: more inspiration, more insight, more compassion, more agape, more self- and world-illumination, more wisdom...

MORE LIGHT! — Goethe

... increased creative prowess, more passion, more focus, more energy...

Energy is Eternal Delight. — William Blake

...to live at a fever pitch... To be - inoculated with lightning...

Where is the lightning to lick you with its tongue? Where is the frenzy with which ye should be inoculated? — Zarathustra

Do you need any of these things (genuinely curious)?

Why apply psychological readings to anything and to what end? — Tom Storm

It happened by accident. I connected John's Revelation to Campbell's take on the hero myth.


Descent to the underworld followed by rebirth and dissemination of insight gained.

Texts/Speech

1. What the writer/speaker wants to convey (thoughts)

2. What was conveyed (text/speech)

3. What the reader/listener understands (hermeneutics)


Sometimes $1 \neq 2 \neq 3$.

The Biblia Sacra could be a text-based Rorschach test. The writer (the apostles) don't want to pass on to us the word of god; instead, the idea is to assess our mindset and diagnose underlying pathologies. :snicker:

It happened by accident. I connected John's Revelation to Campbell's take on the hero myth.


Descent to the underworld followed by rebirth and dissemination of insight gained. — ZzzoneiroCosm

Do you mind if I continue with some questions? I'm a crass methodological naturalist, with no sensus divinitatis. I spent a year studying Campbell and Jungian archetypes in the 1980's. Not that this was of any use, but I have some idea of the content. Ideas of rebirth or underworld are not meaningful to me. But I'm interested in those for whom it is.

How do you relate a book with this kind of material to your own life?

Do you mind if I continue with some questions? — Tom Storm

Don't mind at all.

At work at the moment but I may attempt a rough draft of an answer. My prose is better when I'm on my couch. :smile:

No worries. I'm hoping for succinct dot points or accessible touch stones to help build a bridge in my understanding of this process. I'm not good with slabs of text. :wink:

How do you relate a book with this kind of material to your own life? — Tom Storm

Stage one and two:

1. Recognition and revolt.
2. The encounter with the will to self-transcendence.

The first stage is recognition and revolt. Recognition and revolt against some kind of darkness. "Darkness" can mean different things. Immersion in a neurotic culture. Unconscious submission to a neurotic family structure. Or it could be a self-destructive habit like alcoholism.

The second stage is the will to transcend. It may mean rejecting one's family, or overcoming alcoholism. It may mean total rejection of a culture viewed as neurotic and thereat an attempt to find a new way to live - a new country or a new career.

This first stage of recognition and revolt is where the resonance of John's command to overcome takes hold. Overcome your past, overcome the - always addictive - comfortable but self-stifling patterns of the past; break (typically in anguish) the homey mold you've grown accustomed to. Set out into the unknown.

To be continued...

Stage 1 and 2 find their counterpart in chapters 1-3 of Revelation: the entreaty to overcome.

Stage 3: destruction of the old self.
Stage 4: creation of the new self

Stage 3 is the process of breaking the mold: the destruction of the old self. The descent into the underworld or unknown. Reflected in the destruction of the Earth in chapters 3-20 of Revelation. The symbological details are of little account, apart from conveying the fear and anguish of this sort of self-revision and the suggestion of the need for courage.

Stage 4 arrives when new patterns of thought and behavior have taken hold. The subject feels, quite literally, like a new person inhabiting a new world. The old self, the destroyed self, no longer holds any recidivistic allure. The old habits and addictions are defeated. This is the stage of (in some cases, mystical) insight. Reflected in chapters 21-22.

Appreciated. So the first part of the process is a recognition or identification that there is a issue needing to be dealt with (wording is difficult here). A problem to solve, a pattern to overcome...

Taking action is the next step.

Can you say some more about how an old book provides succor? Is it more in the realm of a mystical process or something that can be articulated? How does the book provide any kind of foundation to the rebuilding process you are describing? I understand how a 'self-help' book works - there are specific tasks to follow. But I guess I am lost in the symbolic aspects of the process in this instance - it that makes sense.

Footnote:

The fear and anguish arise from the fact that the old self must be destroyed before a new self can be created. There's no way I'm aware of to create the new self from the safety of the old self and then, so to speak, step into the new self in the manner of a costume change. Hence, fear, uncertainty, profound anxiety.

The fear and anguish arise from the fact that the old self must be destroyed before a new self can be created. — ZzzoneiroCosm

Is this symbolic language, or do you take it more literally? Is the old self 'destroyed' as such or is it superseded?

Can you say some more about how an old book provides succor? — Tom Storm

As a poet, I take Revelation to be a work of poetic genius. The atmosphere is one of superlative spiritual intensity, the height of inspiration. This height, this inspiration, conveys an almost divine authority, which gives the anxious seeker a refuge, a locus of encouragement and a suggestion of future self-confidence.

Is this symbolic language, or do you take it more literally? — Tom Storm

A bit exaggerated, but literal in the sense that the desired, future patterns of mind are incompatible with the present undesired darkness-laden patterns of mind.

If the self is the mind you might say the old mind has to be destroyed to make a place for the new.

But, sure, it's something of an exaggeration.

This is not a theology thread. Shoo! — ZzzoneiroCosm

Yeah, it is.