As a poet, I take Revelation to be a work of poetic genius. The atmosphere is one of superlative spiritual intensity, the height of inspiration. — ZzzoneiroCosm

I find this particularly interesting. I like language but prose, not poetry. I have always found poetry to be like a foreign language. But I really like the idea of it. I find music more useful when it comes to contemplation and inspiration.

As a poet, I take Revelation to be a work of poetic genius. The atmosphere is one of superlative spiritual intensity, the height of inspiration. This height, this inspiration, conveys an almost divine authority, which gives the anxious seeker a refuge, a locus of encouragement and a suggestion of future self-confidence. — ZzzoneiroCosm

So this is where I fail to connect. This last sentence is especially intriguing. It sounds like you are describing an emotional reaction to the text rather than a cerebral one. Like listening to music?

Yeah, it is. — Banno

You call transpersonal psychology theology because you have an agenda.

This last sentence is especially intriguing. It sounds like you are describing an emotional reaction to the text rather than a cerebral one. Like listening to music? — Tom Storm

An influx of encouraging, transformative inspiration is emotional. Sure.

influx of encouraging, transformative inspiration — ZzzoneiroCosm

So you're saying the prose inspires/encourages you. What is it about the prose that does this? Is it any different than me being swept away by the writing of Saul Bellow?

Is it any different than me being swept away by the writing of Saul Bellow? — Tom Storm

Only different in the sense that John is encouraging, even demanding, self-transformation. (Not so much with Bellow, for what I've read from him.) And then provides an internalizable Utopian vision - New Jerusalem - to compound encouragement with inspiration.

I find music more useful when it comes to contemplation and inspiration. — Tom Storm

In the realm of music you have folks like Jimi Hendrix who had a desire to open the minds of his compeers. And so many others.

In the realm of music you have folks like Jimi Hendrix who had a desire to open the minds of his compeers — ZzzoneiroCosm

Only different in the sense that John is encouraging, even demanding, self-transformation. — ZzzoneiroCosm

So it sounds as if part of your process is making an assessment that the artist or work in question has the right intentional underpinning.

And then provides an internalizable Utopian vision - New Jerusalem - to compound encouragement with inspiration. — ZzzoneiroCosm

This is sounding more theological now.

Only different in the sense that John is encouraging, even demanding, self-transformation. — ZzzoneiroCosm

How do you make that assessment - does the work say this or does is it implied? Or is this inherent in any work that has a religious purpose?

How do you make that assessment - does the work say this or does is it implied? — Tom Storm

The work states explicitly - in spiritualized poetic language - what will happen if one "overcomes."

This is sounding more theological now. — Tom Storm

The Utopian vision understood as inspiration for self-transformation can have a theological or non-theological context. From Marxism to Jonestown. It's wide-ranging.

The work states explicitly - in spiritualized poetic language - what will happen if one "overcomes." — ZzzoneiroCosm

Is there a reference? I haven't read any religious texts in three decades.

The Utopian vision understood as inspiration for self-transformation can have a theological or non-theological context. From Marxism to Jonestown. It's wide-ranging. — ZzzoneiroCosm

Perhaps it is messianic then?

Is there a reference? — Tom Storm

Open chapters one and two of Revelation in a browser and ctrl-F the word overcome. It's a kind of refrain.

Perhaps it is messianic then? — Tom Storm

Conventional Christianity has taken it to be. My psychological reading is a bit eccentric.

Perhaps it is messianic then? — Tom Storm

For what it's worth, I'm far from Christian. :smile:

My psychological reading is a bit eccentric. — ZzzoneiroCosm

That's cool. And thank you for answering all my rather blunt questions.

For what it's worth, I'm far from Christian. — ZzzoneiroCosm

I think that is significant (to me anyway).

That's cool. And thank you for answering all my rather blunt questions. — Tom Storm

Anytime. Helps me clarify my thoughts...

reference — Tom Storm

I should have mentioned I'm looking at the KJV. I noticed the NIV uses "he who is victorious" not "who overcometh".

Same idea.

The way that the collective consciousness of planet Earth evolves. — Kevin Tan

I have trouble with the notion of collective consciousness, as the range of ideologies, cultures, behaviors, propensities of thought is vast and baffling. I think almost exclusively in terms of a personal evolution.

This is mirrored in the shift from the Utopianism of the 1960s to the self-improvement trends of the 1970s.


From levitating the Pentagon to Esalen.

I understand how a 'self-help' book works - there are specific tasks to follow. But I guess I am lost in the symbolic aspects of the process in this instance - it that makes sense. — Tom Storm

In the case of deriving transformational inspiration from an abstract poem like Revelation, you have to (so to speak) write your own self help book. This requires self-probing and self-reliance, patience and accumulating insight.

Where I come from and live (Netherlands) this concept is taught in school and on the national news. People often say: It's part of the collective consciousness. That's why I've never doubted or questioned its existence. But maybe we're wrong.

Where is the lightning to lick you with its tongue? Where is the frenzy with which ye should be inoculated? — Zarathustra

I have other beings to lick me with their tongues. :)

Yes. Or no. I don't know, I really need more time. :chin:

Yes. Or no. I don't know, I really need more time. — Kevin Tan

We Have All the Time in the World!

:snicker:

Well don't disseminate me, Agent Smith!

Well don't disseminate me, Agent Smith! — Kevin Tan

:ok:

the extraordinary, trans-neurotic, self-aware, lucid, or transcendent, or Self.


Thoughts? — ZzzoneiroCosm

I wonder, is not the ordinary, neurotic, oblivious, lackluster, or mediocre, or Other, to prefer...?

Where I come from and live (Netherlands) this concept is taught in school and on the national news. People often say: It's part of the collective consciousness. That's why I've never doubted or questioned its existence. But maybe we're wrong. — Kevin Tan

I'm not sure I understand what you are referring to when you say 'this concept'. Can you explain? Can you provide an example from your popular culture of it being taught so I can see what you mean in action?

I wonder, is not the ordinary, neurotic, oblivious, lackluster, or mediocre, or Other, to prefer...? — Landoma1

Not sure I understand... Do you mean these things are preferable?

I've never heard anything like that in the US news, left or right.

I have trouble with the notion of collective consciousness, as the range of ideologies, cultures, behaviors, propensities of thought is vast and baffling. I think almost exclusively in terms of a personal evolution. — ZzzoneiroCosm

But dramas involving mothers and fathers are much bigger and older. My persona is tiny by comparison.

If you see a symbol of one of those cosmic sized beings and find yourself arrested by it, it's good to pay attention.