Yeah it's very hard to deal with all these people replying to me. A terrible burden.

Interpreting anybody you don't like as Goebbels contributes you being unable to think outside of the given echo-chamber. ;)

That's not a principle that drives liberalism. — Tzeentch

In an imperfect world inferference obviously is inevitable sometimes, but if your first instinct is to want to interfere, then you're not a liberal. — Tzeentch

Which is why I said "[o]r maybe trying to label me as being any one thing is futile. Better to just address the individual views I hold rather than fit me into a specific box."

They should therefore be kept from interfering in each other's affairs as much as possible.

In an imperfect world inferference obviously is inevitable sometimes — Tzeentch

Yes, and trying to prevent things like the resurgence of Nazism is an inevitable interference.

The principle that drives liberalism is the idea that individuals and governments are inherently unfit to be arbiters of what is acceptable and what isn't on the behalf of others. (One needs only a brief glance at human history to see where this idea came from.) — Tzeentch

I think a better account is offered here:

Liberalism is a philosophy that starts from a premise that political authority and law must be justified. If citizens are obliged to exercise self-restraint, and especially if they are obliged to defer to someone else’s authority, there must be a reason why. Restrictions on liberty must be justified.

If a liberal believes that there is a good reason for a company to fire its neo-Nazi employees then lobbying a company to fire its neo-Nazi employees is consistent with with their liberal views.

Ok, can you explain how you see it in practice? — M777

Yes I can but not on this thread. I would reserve that for a PM exchange between us if you wish.
Unless you want to start a new thread on the doctrine of true socialism. There is a political category on TPF but I think the idea is to discuss the philosophical aspects of politics. A PM exchange would probably be preferred by those here who prefer ‘philosophic discourse,’ to be the mainstay on TPF.

If a liberal believes that there is a good reason to lobby companies to fire its neo-Nazi employees then lobbying companies to fire its neo-Nazi employees is consistent with with their liberal views. — Michael

Especially when they can call anybody they want a neonazi. :D

Yes I can but not on this thread. I would reserve that for a PM exchange between us if you wish.
Unless you want to start a new thread on the doctrine of true socialism. There is a political category on TPF but I think the idea is to discuss the philosophical aspects of politics. A PM exchange would probably be preferred by those here who prefer ‘philosophic discourse,’ to be the mainstay on TPF. — universeness

I think this thread went off-topic a long time ago, so adding some discussion of socialism here won't be a problem.

From my point of view, you seem as a good person, who wants the best for people, unfortunately you are so blinded by this wish that you completely ignore any limitations imposed by reality.

So again, I have no doubt that you can describe socialism in a very attractive way in philosophical terms on paper, problem start when one tries to implement it in reality. ;)

I think people in both Poland and Ukraine are very tough and self-reliant — M777

There are tough resilient humans everywhere, it’s got very little to do with nationality.

Interpreting anybody you don't like as Goebbels — M777

Really? That’s your projection of what I typed. Such projection borders on the irrational!

Funny, the first person to have brought up the notion of 'Nazis' in this thread was none-other than the OP himself. No one, of course, had made any accusation of the kind before-hand. A strange thing, this guilty conscience.

Probably just another exhibition of the victim complex which drives these people to imagine they are being bullied by imaginary scenarios they made up in their heads.

These poor people would have no identity without their their self-sanctifying persecution complex.

There are tough resilient humans everywhere, it’s got very little to do with nationality. — universeness

It has to do with culture and experience. So a 20 year old kid attending gender studies in UCLA has a slightly different experience from his Ukrainian counterpart, firing Javelins into Russian tanks.

Really? That’s your projection of what I typed. Such projection borders on the irrational! — universeness

Not every understandable what you mean.

For what it’s worth, I agree with many of the words you type and I understand why you use angry words at times but you don’t really need them as you often make very good points without the angry words.
I use angry words myself sometimes.

I haven't been all that angry this thread. I've been quite jovial with my dealings with these poor victims of self-fantasy.

They're mad because they're not allowed to have their pity-party in peace.

From my point of view, you seem as a good person, who wants the best for people, unfortunately you are so blinded by this wish that you completely ignore any limitations imposed by reality. — M777

That is kind of you to say. I don’t think I am the naive neophyte you suggest. I have been politically active since my teenage years. I am also 58 and I consider learning about and contributing to, the struggle for a ‘better life,’ for all humans and improved stewardship of Earth, to be the most honourable goal there is. If I die or I am killed in pursuit of such then others will easily replace me.
Be part of the solutions not part of the problems.
Places like TPF at least allow us to debate about what the solutions are and I (and I hope you to) enjoy doing that.

:smile: Your streetlight offers illumination for all those walking around in the darkness of the night time streets.

:heart:

It has to do with culture and experience. So a 20 year old kid attending gender studies in UCLA has a slightly different experience from his Ukrainian counterpart, firing Javelins into Russian tanks. — M777

I am Scottish, we have a bloody history just like most nations. I would fight against any invader of my country just like the Ukrainians are doing.

Not every understandable what you mean. — M777

What??

I am Scottish, we have a bloody history just like most nations. I would fight against any invader of my country just like the Ukrainians are doing. — universeness

Yes, Scots certainly are brave people. As I remember Uberboyo is also Scottish, his interpretation of Jung and Nietzche seem very beneficial. https://youtu.be/0Vb2wPkuX_A

A rather misanthropic, defeatist viewpoint imo.
You can surrender to the dictates of the oligarchs if you want to. Meantime, we socialists will try to save you from your despondent hellish vision of ‘real life.’

Many of us do not want your help. A moral busybody is never a welcome addition to politics, and one who believes he can solve the world’s problems through political tinkering and is mad.

Many of us do not want your help. A moral busybody is never a welcome addition to politics, and one who believes he can solve the world’s problems through political tinkering and is mad. — NOS4A2

Pretty much sums it up. Nobody likes oligarchs, bet replacing Soros with Stalin certainly won't be a step in the right direction. :)

Many of us do not want your help. — NOS4A2

You will not be surprised to read that I tend to gravitate towards those who welcome help.
If it’s not wanted then I will withdraw it from such individuals. Perhaps they will be honourable enough to show gratitude if they benefit from the work that socialists do.

Watched some of the link you offered. The narrator sounded Irish to me not Scottish and his rhetoric was a bit too evangelical, in style for me. How many times can one narrator say ‘soul,’ during a 35 min clip?

I think a person not minding kids being put on puberty blockers is already deep into the crazy narrative. — M777

I'm skeptical about such blockers myself, but that's beside the point.

For me, the rule of thumb would be "live as you like, but don't force it on others", such as if you want to wear a dress, that's up to you, but don't force others to pretend you are a woman, and, moreover, don't try grooming children into such nonsense. — M777

In general I sympathize with that principle. Let's test it. Imagine a progressive professor who starts referring to all of her students as 'she.' Would you have a right to complain?

That’s fair. But as far as I can tell charity and helping isn’t common to the domain of socialism. It’s more about economics.

Btw, nice papal garb in your icon!
Is that you favourite weekend costume?

In general I sympathize with that principle. Imagine a progressive professor who starts referring to all her students as 'she.' Would you have a right complain? — igjugarjuk

I would prefer to stick with the language the way it is. So men as addressed as a "he", women as "she".

But as far as I can tell charity and helping isn’t common to the domain of socialism — NOS4A2

That’s not my experience. I find humanists and socialists share many goals.

Pretty much sums it up. Nobody likes oligarchs, bet replacing Soros with Stalin certainly won't be a step in the right direction. — M777

If you replace with an identical then you will get the same result. I see little difference between a western billionaire or an eastern one who also happens to be a Russian dictator. I am sure Putin and Elon Musk would find they had a lot in common if they chatted for long enough.

Btw, nice papal garb in your icon!
Is that you favourite weekend costume? — universeness

SORRY! I clicked on your icon and saw it was a jesters garb! A good reminder for me to check carefully before commenting. I thought it was a cardinal sitting in a chair!
Made me assume you were a devoted theist.
Even if you are, I apologise anyway!
:blush:

I am sure Putin and Elon Musk would find they had a lot in common if they chatted for long enough. — universeness

Hmm... not sure how did you come to such conclusion. :D
Again, it's not that people don't detest Gates or Soros, but people just understand that any attempts to install socialism would end up with Stalin/Chavez/PolPot/Mao/kimjonun, etc. so of course they prefer to stick with the devils they know.
Of course, any excuses of "no, no, this time we are smarter, we won't let it happen again, this time I promise we would bring in the utopia!" are just delusional.

I would prefer to stick with the language the way it is. So men as addressed as a "he", women as "she". — M777

That doesn't address the point being made. If your rule of thumb is "live as you like, but don't force it on others," surely that means that I'm free to use words how I like and you shouldn't force the way you use words on me? If I want to use the word "she" to refer to everyone then I have the right to do so?