making asides to others — Janus
Balls. You asked me pages back if I were certain of anything. I said yes. You didn't follow up on my reply. — Banno
Can you know something without knowing it? Are you certain of anything? If so, do you know it is true or not? Do you feel certain of anything that you don't know to be true? — Janus
The consummate politician is always playing to the crowd. — ZzzoneiroCosm
...we can feel certain even we are not... — Janus
I think you hit the nail on the head. — creativesoul
We can feel certain even when we are not right. We can feel certain even when we are not justified in being so. We can feel certain even when we're dead wrong.
We cannot feel certain when we are not feeling certain. — creativesoul
Janus' use of "feeling certain" is about the believer, but his use of "being certain" is about the truth of the belief. — creativesoul
Feeling certain is feeling that you know the truth while being certain is knowing the truth... — Janus
I can feel certain that God exists, but I cannot be certain that God exists. — Janus
What does your practice add to our understanding here that the quote above lacks? — creativesoul
Just because acting in a particular way worked out fine in the end for Frodo, doesn't mean doing something similar will work out fine for me as well.
— baker
How would you know? — Isaac
we need the support of others believing what we do. The solution to that is that those others do not have to be real for this effect to work. Stories.
— Isaac
As long as this is merely a description of what works for people, that's one thing. But to take it as a prescription?? To _deliberately_ pick a work of fiction and use some of the characters in it as one's "support group"? In my experience, this doesn't work.
— baker
What has failed about it?
No need for people to fret much over this...
Your language use is very odd. You claim that feeling certain that 'X' is true is not equivalent to being certain that 'X' is true.
So what extra is needed aside from S's feeling certain that 'X' is true in order for S to be certain that 'X' is true?
Let 'X' be "God exists"... — creativesoul
Do you agree that there is a valid distinction between feeling certain and being certain, or not? — Janus
I can feel certain that God exists, but I cannot be certain that God exists. — Janus
We can feel certain even when we are not right. We can feel certain even when we are not justified in being so. We can feel certain even when we're dead wrong.
We cannot feel certain when we are not feeling certain.
— creativesoul
Why would I not agree when you are simply echoing what I've already said? — Janus
we can feel certain even when we are not...
I've had this experience, and it left me disheartened. My trust in finding support through stories has been eroded. — baker
After that, only a deliberate taking up of this approach remains. Like with so many things, when doing something deliberately, it loses its power somehow. Like if you deliberately try to fall asleep, you can't; if you deliberately try to be "more spontaneous", you're even more uptight.
I think that the trust in stories that you're talking about is what is sometimes termed "states that are essentially by-products". Ie. they cannot be achieved deliberately. — baker
I've had this experience, and it left me disheartened. My trust in finding support through stories has been eroded.
— baker
My question was about how you'd know. I mean, it's not as if Frodo had a party throughout the book. His journey was, if I recall correctly, pretty much one trial after another without let up even up to the last chapter and then he had to leave anyway. I don't see how someone in mid-life could possibly say "well, I tried it and it hasn't worked". — Isaac
After that, only a deliberate taking up of this approach remains. Like with so many things, when doing something deliberately, it loses its power somehow. Like if you deliberately try to fall asleep, you can't; if you deliberately try to be "more spontaneous", you're even more uptight.
I think that the trust in stories that you're talking about is what is sometimes termed "states that are essentially by-products". Ie. they cannot be achieved deliberately.
— baker
Yes, I sympathise with that, it is difficult to get out of the idea that one's first thoughts are somehow more authentic. But there really is no reason to think they are. They just happened to have arrived first. There's nothing special about them.
But I'm talking about the belief, or faith, that acting in a particular way is worth the effort.
It's this belief or faith that can be eroded. — baker
No, I'm not talking about one's first thoughts, I'm talking about mental states that cannot be brought about deliberately. — baker
I'm trying to get Janus to explain what the difference is, according to his/her position, between feeling certain and being certain. Seems to me like that difference amounts to feeling certain being on par with belief whereas being certain is on par with knowledge. That difference is truth to some, warrant to others, and truth plus justification to some. Belief is required for all.
Clarity has not been forthcoming. — creativesoul
So what extra is needed to go from feeling certain that God exists to being certain? — creativesoul
I'm trying to get Janus to explain what the difference is, according to his/her position, between feeling certain and being certain. Seems to me like that difference amounts to feeling certain being on par with belief whereas being certain is on par with knowledge. — creativesoul
Feeling certain is feeling that you know the truth while being certain is knowing the truth; both are about the person. So, again I can feel certain that God exists, but I cannot be certain that God exists. I can be certain that 2+2=4. Can you spot the difference yet? — Janus
Also I spend lots of time in the internet. The net is full of hundreds of professional liers (LIERS )who spend thier lives thinking up words that will sound truthful — Ken Edwards
I carefully avoid believing anything at all. Believing something can be extremely dangerous and can frequently be described as evil behavior. — Ken Edwards
I disagree, though this is semantics and use does vary.You can't be certain that God exists, because being certain is knowing and the things we can be said to know are things that are inter-subjectively corroborable. — Janus
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