So what extra is needed to go from feeling certain that God exists to being certain?
— creativesoul
You can't be certain that God exists, because being certain is knowing and the things we can be said to know are things that are inter-subjectively corroborable. — Janus
I'm trying to get Janus to explain what the difference is, according to his/her position, between feeling certain and being certain. Seems to me like that difference amounts to feeling certain being on par with belief whereas being certain is on par with knowledge.
— creativesoul
Feeling certain is feeling that you know the truth while being certain is knowing the truth; both are about the person. So, again I can feel certain that God exists, but I cannot be certain that God exists. I can be certain that 2+2=4. Can you spot the difference yet?
— Janus — Janus
Can you see how what you said above is the same, in different words, as what I said above? Also you do seem to be agreeing that there is a difference between being certain and feeling certain. If not then point to the difference you think is there between the two statements above. — Janus
What’s so special about knowledge? Knowledge can be wrong... — praxis
...we can feel certain even we are not...
— Janus
We can feel certain even when we are not right. We can feel certain even when we are not justified in being so. We can feel certain even when we're dead wrong.
We cannot feel certain when we are not feeling certain.
So, Janus, help me out here...
Would you agree to all of the above statements? — creativesoul
Why would I not agree when you are simply echoing what I've already said? — Janus
Well, to be blunt, you've said none of those things. I do think you meant them though. What you said was...
we can feel certain even when we are not...
If what I said echoes that then that is an incomplete thought filled out by my echoes. — creativesoul
Janus' use of "feeling certain" is about the believer, but his use of "being certain" is about the truth of the belief. — creativesoul
No, you've got it wrong again. Feeling certain is feeling that you know the truth while being certain is knowing the truth; both are about the person. — Janus
Considering the differences between your statements is not enough to understand the remarkable difference in the meaning between our respective statements. You've now confirmed more than once that my paraphrasing captured what you meant. — creativesoul
The differences there are remarkable enough to shed light on the problems with your particular use. — creativesoul
You hold that knowing the truth is about the believer, and while I would not reject that claim outright, for knowing the truth is indeed about the believer - in part at least. — creativesoul
I disagree, though this is semantics and use does vary.
Certain has to do with a mental attitude, not the truth value of one's belief. — Bylaw
To the extent that one is uncertain one does not know, and to the extent to which does not feel certain one does not believe, but rather doubts. — Janus
But that's just not the meaning of the word at all. If I'm 99.9999% sure it's afternoon, no one in their right mind would describe that situation as me "doubting it's afternoon" — Isaac
Nothing special about knowledge if it can be wrong. On my view, it cannot. — creativesoul
So what is the name of my attitude toward "its afternoon"? — Isaac
To me the following does not fit with my description of what certain means...I haven't said otherwise. — Janus
You can't be certain that God exists, because being certain is knowing and the things we can be said to know are things that are inter-subjectively corroborable.
I am taking these questions as expecting the answer should be 'no'.Do you think we can be said to know anything we cannot be certain of? Do you think we can be said to believe anything we do not feel certain of? — Janus
I don't think feeling certain or being certain are distinguished in the use of certain. He was certain he was right but he was mistaken. He felt certain he was right, but he was mistaken. Both those sentences read a plausible assessments to me. — Bylaw
...I'm not concerned with knowing the truth in any absolute sense or with what truth is. I'm saying that being certain is being certain of knowing the truth... — Janus
...you speak of some purported "remarkable difference" which you haven't explained as far as I can tell...
...you've said your statements "capture what I meant" which I read as meaning they agree with what I meant...
Contrary to what you've said, I have set out the differences between "we can feel certain even when we are not" and "we can feel certain even when we are not right". As hinted at above, the term "right" was added without subsequent objection. You offered the claim, and I added a term andchecked for your agreement. You readily offered it up. You did not object to that term being added. Rather, you claimed that I was "echoing" what you said. — creativesoul
Given that you originally invoked "knowing the truth" as the distinction between feeling certain and being certain, if you are not concerned with what truth is, then you're not concerned with what "knowing the truth" means. — creativesoul
You claimed that being certain is knowing the truth and then later openly expressed no concern about what truth is. Nothing left for me to say... — creativesoul
I'm not concerned with knowing the truth in any absolute sense or with what truth is. I'm saying that being certain is being certain of knowing the truth... — Janus
Being certain and knowing the truth are different. — creativesoul
You're haven't been saying anything relevant in the way of disagreement... — Janus
...all instances of being certain of knowing the truth, as opposed to feeling certain of knowing the truth are instances of knowing the truth. — Janus
If that were true, it would be impossible for anyone to be certain that "God exists" is true. — creativesoul
...do you disagree that I can be certain that 2+2=4. that the Earth is roughly spherical, that vertebrates have an internal skeletal structure and so on? — Janus
Do you disagree that I cannot be certain that God exists, but that I can feel certain of it?
If that were true, it would be impossible for anyone to be certain that "God exists" is true.
— creativesoul
it is impossible to be certain of that... — Janus
All instances of being certain... ...are instances of knowing the truth. — Janus
I'm not concerned with knowing the truth in any absolute sense or with what truth is. I'm saying that being certain is being certain of knowing the truth — Janus
If you are uncertain as to whether it is afternoon, then it seems to follow that you entertain some doubt — Janus
Are you vacillating between believing it is afternoon and doubting it? In other words are you vacillating between certainty and uncertainty? — Janus
You want to change that language use, but I'm unclear as to what you want it changed to. — Isaac
The more significant idea I've been exploring is that it makes no sense to speak of knowing something that one is not certain of or believing something one does not feel certain of. To the extent that one is uncertain one does not know, and to the extent to which does not feel certain one does not believe, but rather doubts. — Janus
Glad you like your new place. I'm with you all the way when it comes to preferring being more on the land than in the city or suburbs. Luckily, we live on an acre, so it's not so bad as the quarter acre carefully designed plots with fences between that are common nowadays. Twenty or fifty or a hundred acres would be better though! — creativesoul
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