Am I correct in my thinking? — musicpianoaccordion
1. What do you think about how people use "holistic approach"? Used in the wrong way? — musicpianoaccordion
2. Are "reductionism vs holism" really that helpful? — musicpianoaccordion
3. Aristotle issupposed to have said that "The whole is more than the sum of its parts.". Does it make him a supporter of holism and an antireductionist? — musicpianoaccordion
4. For me as a musician — musicpianoaccordion
When I read that reductionism can be "the sum can be explained by its parts" I was a bit confused. That can't be what it really means. Is that just a bad definition? — musicpianoaccordion
Are "reductionism vs holism" really that helpful? — musicpianoaccordion
In philosophical arguments, Reductionism & Holism are typically presented as contrasting worldviews or belief systems. But in reality, they are complementary. Both are merely ways of understanding our complex, and ever-changing, world from different frames of reference. Reductionism simply chops complexity into bits & bytes that the human mind can deal with, and then draws general conclusions by adding those parts back together. Yet, Holism is a way of looking, not at the characteristics of individual components of a system, but at how the system functions as a whole. Moreover, each sub-component can also be viewed as a Holon, with essential properties of its own.In philosophy I often hear about how reductionism and holism are antonyms. — musicpianoaccordion
That's an interesting example of the Reductive vs Holistic approach to problems. It reminded me of New Orleans before & after hurricane Katrina. After that disaster, the Civil engineers and Corp of Engineers were criticized, in retrospect, for not anticipating all the things that can go wrong. But, before the hurricane, it was well-known that the city was in danger of inundation, because most of it was below sea, river & lake level. The city itself was it was situated like a bathtub, surrounded by water on all sides, and with only one way out : down the drain, but with the stopper in place. For good practical reasons though, engineers are typically narrowly-focused on a particular technical problem. But, NO was a multi-faceted deterministic disaster, just waiting for the first deluge domino to fall.I was a civil engineer, often a very reductionist discipline. Example - storm sewer design. When you design a sewer system to handle stormwater, i.e. water resulting from rain or snow, on a property, regulations and standards of practice say you only have to take into account the maximum flow leaving the site. That doesn't take into account the time and sequence of flow on your property and in the system as a whole. Result - inadequate capacity and flooding. A holistic approach would take into account the effects of changes in flow from your property on the system as a whole. Problem - it's very hard, and expensive, to do that. — T Clark
It's true, that Reductionism is a primary intellectual tool of modern Science -- ever since the Enlightenment rebellion against Theological Science. Which could be construed as Holistic, in the sense that certain Theories were presented as Dogma, and intended to be swallowed whole, by Faith not Reason. Gallileo was a prime example of that new way of thinking. He looked at stars objectively (relative to each other), instead of subjectively (relative to the observer). Hence, he came to reject certain ancient astronomical theories, inherited from ancient Greeks, and presented as dogma by the church.I've been told that reductionnism is more of a method than or a specific philosophical ism — musicpianoaccordion
"I suggest those definitions have been cooked up by those in a discipline other than philosophy or some well meaning ignorant fool on the internet"
It even said that holism is a part if New age. My understanding is that the terms oneness and pantheism are used in New age. Holistic approach is another term used.
Holism doesn't really describe new age even though it might be related to it in some ways.
We've done the analysis and should now do the synthesis? — musicpianoaccordion
Yes, that would involve making holes smaller. — Bartricks
Good comparison. The key distinction here is that Reductionism deals with Quanta (discrete isolated objects) while Holism deals with Qualia (continuous integrated systems). Quanta includes particular things that can be known via physical senses (i.e. empirical). Qualia includes essences that make a thing what it is, and can be known only via meta-physical Reason (i.e. inference). After the birth of modern science immaterial essences (spirits) were excluded -- for good reasons -- from pragmatic studies. Yet, since the birth of the ironically-named Quantum Mechanics*1, it became necessary for Science to once again deal with whole systems, because the entangled sub-atomic "parts" can't be dealt with in isolation.Reductionism: 1 + 2 = 3. Everything about the whole (3) is explicable in terms of its parts (1, 2).
Holism: 2H + O = H2O. As Gnomon pointed out, wetness (water) is inexplicable with the properties of hydrogen or oxygen. — Agent Smith
Holism is not the opposite of reductionism! — Bartricks
You do realize Gnomon doesn't know what he's talking about? — Bartricks
Gnomon seems to be confusing holism with 'whole-ism'. — Bartricks
Apparently. Bartricks prefers a very narrow exclusive definition of "holism", whereas I favor a broader, more inclusive, interpretation. Historically, you have many versions to choose from : Pythagoras, Aristotle, Taoism, Holistic Medicine, etc. So, how you use the term may be a matter of personal taste. Hence, my personal usage is based on Jan Smut's philosophical book Holism and Evolution. Yet, for the purposes of my Enformationism thesis, I have also expanded the context of the term "Holism" to include Reductionism, as the other side of the Whole coin.Holism is not the opposite of reductionism! — Bartricks
Why? — Agent Smith
Of course. That's why the first rule of philosophical dialog is "define your terms". Otherwise, each participant may make unwarranted assumptions that don't match the other's meaning. For example, Bartrick seems to associate "Holism" with "peace & love spouting, weirdo-counter-cultural, long-haired hippie freaks", or with "incense burning, pot smoking, crystal gazing, mantra chanting, New Age nuts". But those prejudices have nothing to do with my personal understanding and usage of "Holism".Looks like, as is common, the word "holism" has different meanings - from the tenor of our discussions we're already aware of two: — Agent Smith
Get involved in philosophical discussions about knowledge, truth, language, consciousness, science, politics, religion, logic and mathematics, art, history, and lots more. No ads, no clutter, and very little agreement — just fascinating conversations.