Why does religion condemn suicide?

javi2541997

I am bringing another topic which shows a big difference between Western and Asian culture. Suicide is a taboo topic that has been used both in philosophy and religion. It is important to differentiate them in two main blocks:

Religion:

According to Catholic teachings about suicide. St. Augustine of Hippo, an early Christian bishop and philosopher, wrote that “he who kills himself is a homicide.” In fact, according the Catechism of St. Pius X, an early 20th-century compendium of Catholic beliefs, someone who died by suicide should be denied Christian burial.
On Islamic understandings, the fate of those who die by suicide is similarly dreadful. Hadiths, or sayings, attributed to the Prophet Muhammad warn Muslims against committing suicide. The hadiths say that those who kill themselves suffer hellfire. And in hell, they will continue to inflict pain on themselves, according to the method of their suicide.
In Hinduism, suicide is referred to by the Sanskrit word “atmahatya,” literally meaning “soul-murder.” “Soul-murder” is said to produce a string of karmic reactions that prevent the soul from obtaining liberation. In fact, Indian folklore has numerous stories about those who commit suicide. According to the Hindu philosophy of birth and rebirth, in not being reincarnated, souls linger on the earth, and at times, trouble the living.

Literature or artistic perspective:

His name was Kozaburo Eto. This young student killed himself on february 11th, exactly the Constitution’s day. He did it lonely in the darkness of his job staying apart from television or looks. It was a solemn and respectful act. This was the main critical action against politics I ever seen in my life.
Yukio Mishima, the way of samurai, pages 81 and 82.

And what I envied most about him was that he managed to reach the end of his life without the slightest conscience of being burdened with a special individuality or sense of individual mission like mine. This sense of individuality robbed my life of its symbolism, that is to say, or its power to serve, like Tsurukawa’s, as a metaphor for something outside itself; accordingly it deprived me of the feelings of life’s extensity and solidarity, and it became the source of that sense of solitude which pursued me indefinitely. It was strange. I did not even have any feeling of solidarity with nothingness - Yukio Mishima, The Temple of the Golden Pavilion.

What I have discovered along this year is the big difference between the concept of death in these doctrines. Religion itself clearly condemn it. Nevertheless, Japanese authors like Mishima sees it as a solemn act with liberation.
Doesn't matter how controversial suicide is I think is a respectful act which reflects individualism. We have to respect when someone decides to end their life and not condemn it.

Cuthbert

It is a big difference. I don't think it has always been that way. When a politician resigns in disgrace, he is sometimes said to 'fall on his sword', that is, he 'kills' himself rather than face the shame of 'living'. It is a matter of honour. 'Death before dishonour' is another Western saying reflecting this principle. In a Victorian novel, a disgraced soldier might be left alone in a room with a pistol, the expectation being that he would 'do the decent thing' and end his own life. But these are relics. The predominant view is that suicide is a sign of mental disturbance. It evokes pity rather than either admiration or blame. To condemn someone for committing or attempting suicide or to express admiration for their sense of honour are now both taboo in the West.

Regarding cultural stereotypes, there is or was a belief in some parts of the West that Japanese culture held suicide for honourable motives in very high regard and that suicide was seen as a duty on a disgraced man. It was believed (rightly or wrongly) that Hindu widows were duty bound to kill themselves on their husbands' pyre. In the modern West, any connection of suicide to honour and disgrace or to sin and damnation is forbidden and will attract the strongest condemnation.

javi2541997

The predominant view is that suicide is a sign of mental disturbance. — Cuthbert

I never understood why [suicide] is seen that way. So I guess I am in the minority side.

In the modern West, any connection of suicide to honour and disgrace or to sin and damnation is forbidden and will attract the strongest condemnation. — Cuthbert

It is forbidden because religion has a lot of power in the making of laws in Western world. They always have condemned it and then they influenced the legislative process to make it as a law or rule. To be honest I think it is unfair.
Would you call "delinquent" to a suicidal person?

Cuthbert

Sorry, to clarify. The thing that is 'forbidden' in many social circles in the West is referring to suicide as sinful or worthy of condemnation. If you say that a suicide is somehow to be blamed then people will think you are cruel and heartless and have no understanding of the sadness and mental disturbance that leads to someone taking their own life.

Moses

Doesn't matter how controversial suicide is I think is a respectful act which reflects individualism. We have to respect when someone decides to end their life and not condemn it. — javi2541997

↪javi2541997

This is true if we adopt value neutral individualism, but the Judeo-Christian tradition is not fundamentally individualistic. In Judaism -- out of which Christianity comes from -- our bodies are not on our own, but rather basically considered on loan from God. You're not allowed to self-harm either. The ten commandments tell us "thou shalt not murder" and suicide can reasonably be interpreted as "self murder" although the picture is not quite this black and white and the Bible portrays numerous suicides in various conditions, some of which appear to be condoned. When I write of suicide here I'm talking about suicide not under duress and of full consciousness of one's actions.

Suicide traditionally gets the worst treatment in Judaism in the afterlife. Only God has the right to give and take life and killing oneself is considered playing God. It was a mortal sin in Catholicism until 1983. It also leaves no opportunity for repetentence/atonement.

Cuthbert

An exception is someone who has committed a major crime. If he kills himself then he may be publicly condemned for cowardice and for evading justice.

javi2541997

This is true if we adopt value neutral individualism, but the Judeo-Christian tradition is not fundamentally individualistic. In Judaism -- out of which Christianity comes from -- our bodies are not on our own, but rather basically considered on loan from God. — Moses

Yes, that's true. I do understand that in these specific religions our body belongs to God so, whenever we hurt ourselves, we are hurting God too.
But I am not agree. I just see it as the average religious subterfuge which only prolong our suffering. It is not fair the statement that I hurt God killing myself but not when I am suffering previously.
If we constantly use the argument of "not hurting" God we are forced to always suffer

javi2541997

If you say that a suicide is somehow to be blamed then people will think you are cruel and heartless and have no understanding of the sadness and mental disturbance that leads to someone taking their own life. — Cuthbert

Agreed. At least this is the thought I wish is implemented in most people's minds

Moses

↪javi2541997

But I am not agree. I just see it as the average religious subterfuge which only prolong our suffering. It is not fair the statement that I hurt God killing myself but not when I am suffering previously.
If we constantly use the argument of "not hurting" God we are forced to always suffer — javi2541997

I don't think suicide hurts God (God is all-powerful), but it is bad for one's soul if such a thing exists. If there is no soul we will already spend the vast majority of time in nothingness so nothing really matters, but in in the off chance there is a soul one ought to live as good as possible and heighten one's spiritual state as this life is not the end.

Everyone suffers, and often in their own unique way. Others can often help us alleviate our own suffering.

javi2541997

If there is no soul we will already spend the vast majority of time in nothingness so nothing really matters — Moses

Well, I think this is one of the main uncertainties of our lives: the pointless of existence. What really matters at all?

Everyone suffers, and often in their own unique way. Others can often help us alleviate our own suffering — Moses

Good point but trust me, it impossible to help. We will suffer most of the days in this life. We can help each other but it would alleviate few seconds compared to all hours with pain

Moses

↪javi2541997

Go find love, Javi.

javi2541997

↪Moses

I cannot looking for something that doesn't exist

Moses

↪javi2541997

If you believe that you're already dead.

The Old Testament commands one to choose life.

javi2541997

↪Moses

This is why I sound sceptical with religion or sacred books. Why does the Old Testament commands me to choose life over and over again? Like why the prophets were obsessed with the act of living.

Paulm12

Doesn't matter how controversial suicide is I think is a respectful act which reflects individualism. We have to respect when someone decides to end their life and not condemn it

One of the tricky things here is individualism itself is a very western idea, influenced a lot by Judeo-Christian ideas.

For many religions, life is sacred and as a result, suicide is a denial of this.

Perhaps one could make an argument in places like Japan where space was limited suicide was more condoned for this reason. But I think the explanation of honor and bringing honor to your family makes more sense.

Moses

↪javi2541997

That commandment, found in Deuteronomy, is from God.

At the end of the day you're going to make the final decision: Life or death. Love or lovelessness. It's up to you.

javi2541997

Perhaps one could make an argument in places like Japan where space was limited suicide was more condoned for this reason — Paulm12

Sorry but I do not understand this argument. Do you mean space as the territory itself?
Japan has never been so drastic with suicide until the last decade of this century creating the Ministry of "Loneliness" Tetsushi Sakamoto (坂本哲志) Minister of Loneliness.
Their artists have always showed suicide as art or as an act of purity

javi2541997

At the end of the day you're going to make the final decision: Life or death. Love or lovelessness. It's up to you. — Moses

Is up to me but whatever I would do it would make some suffer or pain to others, for example my parents or others who care about me. It is not so easy to make "own decisions"

unenlightened

Organised religion forbids the miserable serfs and slaves from any escape from their exploitation. Because the organisation wants to continue to exploit. Just as the shrinks used to treat attempting to escape as a mental illness (drapetomania), so the modern shrink treats the attempt to escape oppression and exploitation by suicide as a mental illness today. Any resemblance between religion and psychiatry is purely un-coincidental.

javi2541997

↪unenlightened

Well written, sir. Excellent statement :100: :clap:

Tom Storm

↪javi2541997

I work closely with psychiatry departments in our big city hospitals. In a clinical setting, suicide is understood as an individual's response (albeit regrettable) to situations they find overwhelming and is understood contextually. I have responded to many individuals who wanted to kill themselves. In every case I've seen it is because life has become unbearable through chronic pain, the loss of a loved one, major depression, sexual abuse, trauma - that kind of thing. Most people do find a way to work through the issues and find reasons to live.

javi2541997

↪Tom Storm

Most people do find a way to work through the issues and find reasons to live.

Glad to know most of the people find out a situation where they can skip suicide. But Tom, I want to respect all of those who end up in this context. I will not criminalise them. Whenever this issue happens we have to take care of them with honoured acts.
I wish I could understand them better. But I am closer to the meaning of suicide in a Japanese literature point of view

Moses

↪javi2541997

Is up to me but whatever I would do it would make some suffer or pain to others, for example my parents or others who care about me. It is not so easy to make "own decisions" — javi2541997

Suicide causes immeasurable pain and suffering to those who knew the deceased. Parents never get over it. You'd be causing immeasurable suffering to your parents and siblings.

javi2541997

↪Moses

You'd be causing immeasurable suffering to your parents

Exactly. This a very important point. Parents do not deserve experience the pain of losing a son because of suicide. I guess it could be the worst scenario possible.
But I am not referring to individuals who are surrounded by family or good friends. I am referring to lonely people. This tend to be the main characteristic of a suicidal.

Bartricks

↪javi2541997

Surely the reason it is often condemned as immoral is simply to discourage people from doing it?

Death is a great harm to the one who undergoes it. Most recognize this and are sufficiently responsive to instrumental reasons to not do it. Most recognize, for instance, that killing oneself to avoid having to attend a boring meeting would be very stupid.

But if one can persuade someone that it is immoral as well, then one has double bubbled it. And that person is now less likely to kill themselves than if they only recognized instrumental reason not to do so.

That doesn't mean it is immoral, it's just an explanation of why it might be condemned as being. The bottom line is that it's such a great harm to die we want to prevent people from doing it in moments of stupidity

javi2541997

The bottom line is that it's such a great harm to die we want to prevent people from doing it in moments of stupidity — Bartricks

Understandable. But I do not see "stupidity" when someone is walking through a period where they want to kill themselves. I think is a very serious situation and I can't imagine a person with the aim of killing himself just randomly.
Every suicidal tend to have a respectful cause to their actions

Bartricks

↪javi2541997

But sometimes it can be stupid. And most of the time it is not going to be in the best interests of the person who is contemplating doing it. Given this, it may be morally justifiable to condemn it as immoral. Not because it is, but in the hope that the person who is misunderstanding what's in their best interests might nevertheless respond to moral reasons.
Of course, sometimes it won't be contrary to the person's interests. But most of the time it will. And trying to persuade someone not to do something that it is contrary to their interests seems like a respectful thing to do.

javi2541997

↪Bartricks

What I try to contemplate with you is that a person with these kind of thoughts rarely have interests or a stupid reason. They just want to finish their lives. Simple as it sounds. The paradox here is the issue that specialists who want to prevent these people from killing themselves tend to show them the pursue of a life full of stupidity and useless. Or as they say so constantly: The way of keep living not matter the suffering

180 Proof

Organised religion forbids the miserable serfs and slaves from any escape from their exploitation. Because the organisation wants to continue to exploit. Just as the shrinks used to treat attempting to escape as a mental illness (drapetomania), so the modern shrink treats the attempt to escape oppression and exploitation by suicide as a mental illness today. Any resemblance between religion and psychiatry is purely un-coincidental. — unenlightened

:fire:

↪javi2541997

What's the hurry? Why seek a permanent escape from temporary problems? How can you be so optimistic that the end is certainly the end of suffering? — 180 Proof

javi2541997

↪180 Proof

Why seek a permanent escape from temporary problems?

Unfortunately, they are not temporary but perpetual.

How can you be so optimistic that the end is certainly the end of suffering?

It is not about optimism but hope. I guess it is a weak decision to fix the problems but the concept of "end" could be the finish of some important issues such as suffering or depression.

180 Proof

Unfortunately, they are not temporary but perpetual. — javi2541997

Then you dispute

Most people do find a way to work through the issues and find reasons to live — Tom Storm

or the finding that many suicide-attempt survivors realize they did not really want to die?

Why does religion condemn suicide?

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