The fact-value distinction creates an apparently insuperable obstacle for philosophers, but not for ordinary people. Why?
It's not that ordinary people are unaware of the distinction. "That's just, like, your opinion, man." Plus it's drummed into them in English and critical thinking classes. Plus most people seem to figure it out on their own at some point. But the context for that is always the same: someone mistaking their value judgment for a statement of fact. We call people out on this. We teach them the nuance of recognizing when their claims on based on their values rather than the facts. — Srap Tasmaner
[...valorize our] curiosity. — Srap Tasmaner
[O lover of Sophia] be vewy, vewy careful. — Porky the pig
The fact-value distinction creates an apparently insuperable obstacle for philosophers, but not for ordinary people. — Srap Tasmaner
This scientific and philosophical revolution - it is indeed impossible to separate the philosophical from the purely scientific aspects of this process: they are interdependent and closely linked together - can be described roughly as bringing forth the destruction of the Cosmos, that is, the dissappearance from philosophically and scientifically valid concepts, the conception of the world as a finite, closed and hierarchically ordered whole (a whole in which the hierarchy of value determined the hierarchy and structure of being, rising from the dark, heavy and imperfect earth to the higher and higher perfection of the stars and heavenly spheres), and its replacement by an indefinite and even infinite universe which is bound toether by the identity of its fundamental components and laws, and in which all those components are placed on the same level of being. This, in turn, implies the discarding by scientific thought of all considerations based upon value-concepts, such as perfection, harmony, meaning and aim, and finally the utter devalorisation of being, the divorce of the world of value from the world of facts. — Alexander Koyré, From the Closed World to the Infinite Universe
See Does Reason Know what it is Missing?, Stanley Fish, for a discussion of Habermas' analysis of this issue.) — Wayfarer
The fact-value distinction creates an apparently insuperable obstacle for philosophers, but not for ordinary people. Why? — Srap Tasmaner
Both of those answers represent greater understanding than we had before, and that's what we wanted. The problem statement provides a way in, even if it turns out the problem we thought was there is illusory. What's more, if it is illusory, we want to know why -- that is, what is it about this phenomenon that allows us, perhaps encourages us (or even requires us, as with optical illusions), to see it wrongly? — Srap Tasmaner
This is very close to Mary Midgley's idea of philosophy as plumbing. We don't need it until things start to leak or smell. — Banno
Speak for yourself. :smirk:Philosophers: Ordinary folk think too less.
Ordinary folk: Philosophers think too much.
We never hit the sweet spot betwixt deficiency & excess now do we? We're always swinging, pendulum-like, back and forth between extremes. The aurea mediocritas isn't easy to either attain or maintain. — Agent Smith
Sure, there are some uses of language that appear to be habit more than a clear understanding of what it actually means to say such things, but I've seen philosophers fall prey to the habit just as much as ordinary people. Assumptions make up the the foundation from where we build our understanding of the world. Philosophers are the ones that don't seem to realize that as they attempt to re-ask the same questions we asked and solved in the 4th grade. That isn't to say that there aren't some higher level assumptions that we take for granted that can't be questioned - like does God exist - but then ordinary people can be just as concerned about whether god exists (like when they are suffering at the hand of an unfair world) as a philosopher can.To finish the preface: the philosopher believes that the ordinary person is either unfamiliar with the distinction or fails to apply it properly, and that if they did they too would be in the pickle philosophers are, unable to bridge the gap. Most people just don't notice, or don't understand what a big deal this is, that's the mantra of philosophy. (The other example that leaps to mind also comes from Hume: how do you know the sun will rise tomorrow?) — Srap Tasmaner
Philosophers are the ones that don't seem to realize that as they attempt to re-ask the same questions we asked and solved in the 4th grade. — Harry Hindu
Speak for yourself. :smirk:
Philosophers: folk that use language like its a game or art
Ordinary folk: folk that use language to communicate — Harry Hindu
Philosophers are the ones that don't seem to realize that as they attempt to re-ask the same questions we asked and solved in the 4th grade. That isn't to say that there aren't some higher level assumptions that we take for granted that can't be questioned - like does God exist - but then ordinary people can be just as concerned about whether god exists (like when they are suffering at the hand of an unfair world) as a philosopher can. — Harry Hindu
I'm sorry, that didn't compute! — Agent Smith
Everyone examines their lives at some point - usually in the late teens - early twenties. They question their existence and their purpose. The real question is how much of an examination does your life need before you can get on with just living it? Philosophy seems to have shown that you can never know anything, or that you have to start with some assumptions. So it would be pointless to keep asking questions for which you will never get an answer.Interesting argument. I didn't ask or answer any such questions in 4th grade. I think most of us live unexamined lives, derive value systems unsystematically through experience and socialisation, holding onto views that are an amalgam of fallacies, prejudices and models of reality which can't be justified. I think the point is ignorance is bliss, truth seeking doesn't ususally make any real difference to survivability or prosperity and people have no idea how much of what they think is deficient. — Tom Storm
Philosophers are the ones that don't seem to realize that as they attempt to re-ask the same questions we asked and solved in the 4th grade.
— Harry Hindu
What are those questions? — Jackson
What are propositions? What is a language? What is science? What are numbers? etc. — Harry Hindu
Everyone examines their lives at some point - usually in the late teens - early twenties. They question their existence and their purpose. The real question is how much of an examination does your life need before you can get on with just living it? — Harry Hindu
I'm perfectly happy to say that art and philosophy are unnecessary in exactly this sense. — Srap Tasmaner
And did, practically forever.
Should that bother us? — Srap Tasmaner
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