That one shouldn't be born because life isn't harm-free.
— Xtrix
Why are you expressing it like that? It's not about you - the one who has been born. You don't have an obligation not to have been born - how would you discharge that? Go back to when you didn't exist and stop yourself coming into being? — Bartricks
What I am arguing is that procreative acts - which are not performed by the one who is created by them - subject an innocent person to a shit load of undeserved harm and that generates moral reason not to perform such acts. — Bartricks
The conclusion is that procreative acts are wrong - default wrong - because they create massive injustices: they create an innocent person - a person who deserves a happy harm-free life - and do not provide the innocent person with what they deserve. SO, they create injustice: they make the world a more unjust place. — Bartricks
Because you need to argue that something I've said above is false, not just straw man me by insisting that I'm some sort of pessimist. It's not a pessimistic argument at all. You do realize it goes through even if our lives here contain much more happiness than pain? Yes? — Bartricks
Well I don't fault my parents for having me, either. I guess that's more relevant. In fact I owe them a debt of gratitude for bringing me into this wonderful world, even though the price of admission is also suffering and death. — Xtrix
But out of curiosity, do you fault your parents for bringing you into the world? But your argument, you should. — Xtrix
Yes, I know. So don't have kids -- that's your choice. — Xtrix
What I'm saying is that some kind of "logic" doesn't dictate this, — Xtrix
Why do they deserve that which is impossible? — Xtrix
So essentially the argument rests on this perspective: because there is suffering, life is bad. — Xtrix
Yes, an innocent person is born deserving no harm at all and positively deserving a happy life. So, they are born deserving a harm-free happy life. — Bartricks
Thus, any happiness - any benefit - that accrues to them is default deserved, just as any harm is default undeserved. — Bartricks
They deserve much, much more than this. That's part of the point. They deserve no harm whatsoever. Not some harm and some benefit. No harm. Ziltch. Nada. No harm. — Bartricks
My claim is not at all pessimistic. Assume I think life here is everybit as wonderful as you do. — Bartricks
My claim is that innocent persons deserve none - none - of the harms it contains and much much more of the happiness that it contains. — Bartricks
That's not remotely pessimistic. My claims are about the morality of procreation. Whatever joys you think life here contains, assume I think it contains them as well. That way you won't mistake me for a pessimist. — Bartricks
Well what of happy lives that are NOT harm-free (like, I would argue, my own)? — Xtrix
Yes, I understand. You've said that multiple times. What I'm saying is that this is completely incoherent. Why? Because you cannot have "none" of the harms without negating life completely. If that's truly your criterion for the morality of having a child, then there should be no kids -- ever. — Xtrix
Because the satisfaction of simply being would be better than taking pointless risks ;) — DA671
Says you. But think about it for a minute. NO harm? What does that mean? Is that possible? — Xtrix
If you think that because there's even the slightest pain involved in being alive, that this fact negates everything else -- which is what you're arguing, really -- then that is indeed pessimism. — Xtrix
Imagine you order a pizza and pay upfront.
The pizza that is delivered has a shit on it. You phone up the restaurant to complain that what they delivered is not what you ordered, that it has a shit on it and that you did not order the shit.
The restaurant says "but is it not a lovely pizza? Have you tried part that doesn't have shit on it? It's delicious"
Would you think that's a good response - have they understood your point? — Bartricks
Well I don't fault my parents for having me, either. I guess that's more relevant. In fact I owe them a debt of gratitude for bringing me into this wonderful world, even though the price of admission is also suffering and death.
— Xtrix
That's question begging. You don't owe them a thing. They owe you. They owe you a happy harm free life - which is something they can't even come close to providing. — Bartricks
But out of curiosity, do you fault your parents for bringing you into the world? But your argument, you should.
— Xtrix
Of course. If I didn't, I would be a hypocrite, but my argument would be no less sound for that. — Bartricks
Misses the point: antinatalism is a normative view: a view about what we 'ought' to do. So, by just insisting that it's 'just a matter of choice' you once more beg the question. — Bartricks
What I'm saying is that some kind of "logic" doesn't dictate this,
— Xtrix
Yes it does. I am showing that it does. There are umpteen good arguments for antinatalism, of which the one in the OP is an example. That's why it's a respectable philosophical position that has an increasingly number of defenders. — Bartricks
So far you have said nothing to suggest any premise in my argument is false. You are pointing to other considerations, but not saying anything to challenge any of my argument's premises. — Bartricks
Why do they deserve that which is impossible?
— Xtrix
Are you saying that one can't deserve the impossible? — Bartricks
So essentially the argument rests on this perspective: because there is suffering, life is bad.
— Xtrix
No. — Bartricks
There is no pessimistic premise in my argument. — Bartricks
They say "Why so pessimistic? Most of the pizza does not have poo on it and those bits - the majority - are delicious!"
That'd be crazy, yes? They've missed your point. — Bartricks
Your point is that you deserved to be given a pizza that had no poo on it whatever and was entirely delicious. — Bartricks
You are mischaracterizing my view as "pizza with poo on it totally bad" and just ignoring that my point is that if one has ordered a poo-free cheese pizza and one is given a cheese pizza with poo on it, then you have not received what you deserved. — Bartricks
You're misusing the word incoherent. — Bartricks
I am not claiming that a happy harm free life is possible. I don't think it is. That's why one ought not to procreate!! — Bartricks
Now, you're reasoning "Oh, well as it is impossible for me to give anyone a pizza without poo on it, that's what I'll give people, even if they order cheese pizzas and not cheese and poo pizzas" — Bartricks
And when I phone up and say "why the bloody hell does my pizza have a poo on it!!" you don't reply "but it's mainly cheese and only a bit of poo - stop being so pessimistic, the non-poo bits are lovely" — Bartricks
If you think that because there's even the slightest pain involved in being alive, that this fact negates everything else -- which is what you're arguing, really -- then that is indeed pessimism.
— Xtrix
That's NOT pessimism. — Bartricks
Again, everything I am saying is entirely consistent with whatever rosy outlook you have. — Bartricks
rather than to the fact that solid arguments lead to it. — Bartricks
I'm an antinatalist because it's where the arguments lead. — Bartricks
An unexamined life is not worth living. — Socrates
But the examined one is ;)
Intellectual natalism—subtle as always! — DA671
universal — DA671
Of course, it isn't. :ok: — DA671
In that specific case, no. I don't think it's a great analogy though. Why? Because we're talking about something much bigger -- we're talking about life. So what if the pizza were the size of the world? Would the fact that there was shit on it negate all of that pizza? — Xtrix
There are roses and thorns. There are gifts and impositions. I think that the good matters, but I completely agree that people should not be forced to do things that will ultimately lead to more harm than good — DA671
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