Weightings in neural networks. You are thinking in terms of brains containing representations, but neural nets are not representational. — Banno
This isn't addressing the issue. Your eyes and my eyes are stimulated by the same light, reflected by the same external world source. Yet I see red and you see green. If "red" and "green" refer to some hidden state in the external world cause then what does it mean for me to "see red" and you to "see green" in this situation? The "red" and "green" are referring to some quality of our experiences. — Michael
Some object is red1 if it causes most humans to see red2 — Michael
There's no reason at all to consider the existence of red2. — Isaac
When I see the dress as white and gold and you see the dress as black and blue, what do the words "white", "gold", "black", and "blue" refer to? — Michael
They don't refer to some hidden state. — Michael
the words "black" and "blue" refer to features present in your experience that aren't present in my experience. — Michael
Why not? — Isaac
Then how did we learn to use the words? If they describe private experiences, how is it ever learnt their use. — Isaac
How do we even know that what I call 'black' today is the same thing I called 'black' yesterday? — Isaac
I can see the difference between red and blue. It's immediately apparent. Therefore red and blue aren't hidden states. — Michael
we're shown a bunch of things that share the same colour-appearance — Michael
if colour is a hidden state then how can we learn to use colour words? — Michael
we have a memory and can remember how things appeared in the past and how they appear now — Michael
So when I see a white and gold dress and you see a black and blue dress we're seeing different hidden states? — Michael
No. Same hidden states. I don't understand why you're having so much trouble with the idea of a hidden state having a different effect on different people or in different contexts. — Isaac
Well. We know quite a lot about how the brain creates a holistic experience out of that. Not a complete picture. I'm not sure what your point is. — Isaac
Hidden state X causes me to see red and you to see blue. What does "red" and "blue" refer to? — Michael
It doesn't refer to hidden state X, otherwise we would both be seeing red or both be seeing blue (or both be seeing some other colour). — Michael
If both "red" and "blue" refer to hidden state X then red and blue are the same colour — Michael
The lenses, the photo-receptors, the optic nerves delivering electrical signals.
— Tate
You're just naming parts of the optic system. Your claim was that they give us reason to believe that a spider's brain is receiving a representation of its environment. — Isaac
If the same hidden state causes you to see the colour on the left and me to see the colour on the right then we are seeing different colours. — Michael
An impossible situation from the outset. Hidden states cannot cause us to see colours. There's no mechanism by which that can happen. Seeing a colour is a process which starts with the property of a hidden state and ends with a series of responses (one of which might be to reach for a colour word).
You're imagining that 'seeing a colour' is some internal process, but you've given no reason why you'd imagine such a thing. — Isaac
The electrical signals it receives from the optic nerve are a representation.
— Tate
But we don't 'see' the electrical signals."
— Isaac
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