A little perspective.

Dim Pesky has been chatty, sort of. (Apologies for the Jun 28 repeat.)

Peskov: Zelensky, if desired, can stop the special operation until the end of the day

Peskov: Zelensky can stop hostilities in a day by giving the order to lay down arms

MOSCOW, June 28 - RIA Novosti. The Ukrainian authorities, if they wish, can stop hostilities within a few hours, Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov said, commenting on publications about Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky's plans to end hostilities before winter.

“The Ukrainian side can stop everything before the end of the current day, we need an order for nationalist units to lay down their arms, an order for the Ukrainian military to lay down their arms, and we need to fulfill the conditions of the Russian Federation. Everything can end before the end of the day. The rest is the thoughts of the head of the Ukrainian state,” the press said -Secretary of the President.

He added that the Russian side is guided by the statements of Vladimir Putin - “a special military operation is going according to plan and achieving its goals.” Peskov clarified that there are no approximate dates for its completion.

The day before, US national security adviser Jake Sullivan said that Zelensky, who addressed the leaders of the G7, called on Ukraine's sponsors to make the most of the next few months. According to him, “a protracted conflict is not in the interests of the Ukrainian people for objective reasons.”

In addition, Reuters, citing EU diplomats, reported that Zelensky told the G7 leaders about the need to end the conflict before the onset of winter.

Since February 24, Russia has been conducting a special military operation to demilitarize and denazify Ukraine. President Vladimir Putin called its goal “the protection of people who have been subjected to genocide by the Kiev regime for eight years.” — RIA (Jun 28, 2022)

Ukraine will have to understand the conditions of Russia, said Peskov

Putin's press secretary Peskov said that Ukraine will have to accept the conditions of Russia

PETROPAVLOVSK-KAMCHATSKY, July 3 - RIA Novosti. The demand for initiatives to pacify the situation in Ukraine in the West has decreased, but sooner or later common sense will prevail and the turn of negotiations will come, before which Kyiv will have to understand the conditions of Russia, said the press secretary of the President of the Russian Federation Dmitry Peskov.

“Now the demand for initiatives to pacify the situation has decreased. But we have no doubt that sooner or later common sense will prevail. them. Sit down at the table (of negotiations). And just fix the document that has already been agreed in many respects,” Peskov said in Pavel Zarubin's "Moscow. Kremlin. Putin" program on the Russia 1 TV channel, commenting on the militant statements from Western leaders. — RIA (Jul 3, 2022)

The West is still betting on the continuation of the war, not allowing Kyiv to talk about peace, said Dmitry Peskov.

“Now is the moment when Western countries are betting with might and main on the continuation of the war. This means that the moment continues when Western countries, under the leadership of Washington, speaking Russian, do not allow Ukrainians to think, talk about peace, or discuss peace,” — Peskov said. — ТАСС (Jul 3, 2022)

Immediate ceasefire. Withdrawal of z-troops from Ukraine. Return of kidnapped citizens. Extradition of war criminals. Mechanism of reparations. Recognition of sovereign rights [of] Ukraine... The Russian side knows our conditions very well. Chief Peskov (a) may not worry: the time will come, and we will record them on paper. — Mykhailo Podolyak (Jul 3, 2022)

Not really any end in sight. :/ I wonder what to make of it. Has there been unknown pressure in Moscow? ...? Will Belarus get drawn in? One can just speculate, even a couple of weeks later. Peskov says the Ukrainians have no will of their own (despite evidence to the contrary, including in this thread). Part of the show I guess, while the bombs are going, and people on the ground are taking the hits. Would be awful if Ukraine is turned into a country of haters.

Don't know why you're giving oxygen to Russian propaganda. The story of day is surely the residential apartments and offices in the non-combatant city of Vinnytsia, destroyed by a Russian Cruise missle launched from a nuclear submarine.



Zelensky says that Russia must be formally designated a terrorist state, and he has good grounds for saying that. Of course it's impossible for NATO or the West to join the fight, on pain of nuclear armageddon, although exploiting that fear (along with the economic pain and mass starvation) is all part of the Putin playbook.

Don't know why you're giving oxygen to Russian propaganda. — Wayfarer

Sorry, my aim was more to expose Pesky Peskov, maybe for analysis.
His comments seem kind of transparently slanted - while the bombs are going, and people on the ground are taking the hits.

Yeah, there are all kinds of reports.

Not really any end in sight. :/ I wonder what to make of it. Has there been unknown pressure in Moscow? ...? Will Belarus get drawn in? One can just speculate, even a couple of weeks later. — jorndoe

I still think the Ukrainians will win, and resoundingly so. They are free men fighting an army of slaves, and the weapon imbalance is progressively evening up.

:up: my hope, and belief, also.

Unfortunately, and as Putin himself remarked recently, "It is impossible, as they say, to pass off wishful thinking". Cuts both ways though, ie Putin too is a potential wishful thinker.

What oddly sociopathic hopes you two have.

Wouldn't it be better if fewer people died?

For Ukraine to win, many, many more people will have to die. Ukrainian citizens, Russian 'slaves', Ukrainian soldiers (the 'free men').

A negotiated settlement with concessions on both sides would not require any more people to die. Why would you not want that?

Because Putin has no warrant, no mandate, no cause whatever. He’s acting completely outside international law, he’s responsible for the deaths of millions, and to negotiate with him is to cave into terrorism. If someone broke into your house and shot most of your family dead, would you offer him concessions to leave?

A negotiated settlement with concessions on both sides would not require any more people to die. Why would you not want that? — Isaac

Talk about wishful thinking...

Here we have gaslighting.



Here we don't have gaslighting.

Yeah this thread is a real trolling magnet. Strange how the internet brings out the worst, I’m gong to stick to obscure philosophical arguments in future.

At this point I just feel the need to call it when I see it.

Because Putin has no warrant, no mandate, no cause whatever. He’s acting completely outside international law, he’s responsible for the deaths of millions, and to negotiate with him is to cave into terrorism. — Wayfarer

All true. So you think it's OK that other people die to uphold your personal moral code about not negotiating with terrorists?

He probably agrees with your caricature of him, yes, no doubt.

Ok then, no negotiations.

"We" are going to "beat the Russians", and who do you suppose is going to make that sacrifice to uphold your ideals?

I'm guessing probably not yourselves?

Let's hear your plans then.

This post has nothing to say about my views, so I have no idea what you're on about.

Sorry, I mistook your yappy dog syndrome for the false idea you had something to say.

.

I'm sorry too.

"We" are going to "beat the Russians", and who do you suppose is going to make that sacrifice to uphold your ideals? — Tzeentch

Are you kind of suggesting that Ukrainians are supposedly going to sacrifice their lives to uphold Wayfarer's personal ideals?

Cruise missiles fired from a nuclear submarine directly into a residential area. It is as Zelensky says state terrorism, no question.

Cruise missiles fired from a nuclear submarine directly into a residential area. It is as Zelensky says state terrorism, no question. — Wayfarer

Agreed. But the question is what we ought do about it, not what we ought call it.

Are you kind of suggesting that Ukrainians are going to sacrifice their lives to uphold Wayfarer's personal ideals? — neomac

That's the essence of the idealist approach to international politics.

When states that we shouldn't negotiate with terrorists, on behalf of whose ideals do you believe they're speaking other than their own?

Saying no to negotiations means one thing: to carry through this war to its bitter end. That will mean the destruction of Ukraine and the loss of thousands more lives, if not worse.

This thread is drenched with this type of naive idealism - the belief that one's personal dislike of Putin, however justified, should serve as a basis upon which to decide whether the conflict in Ukraine should be prolonged, and thus how many should continue to sacrifice their lives.

Contrary to popular belief, posters here don't get to take decisions about how long the war will go on. It is absurd to try and make it personal.

I only comment in this thread to register my sense of outrage at what is being done by Putin. That is all. As to what can be done, none of the options are easy. No doubt there's going to be much more suffering, a lot of economic disruption and even starvation, but the world has to stay the course, Putin cannot be allowed to claim victory. The best outcome would be the collapse of his regime and the emergence of a better regime in Russia, but I'm not holding out a lot of hope. That's all I have to say on it.

It is absurd to try and make it personal. — Olivier5

What a joke that you of all people should say that.

I'm not making it personal. I'm calling apples apples. In this thread we are debating on Ukraine and some do so from their personal beliefs and fancies (idealism), and I'll happily argue why that is wrong and what the implications of it are.

So do you think Putin's war is justified? That Ukraine should just give up the fight and allow Russia to annex their country? What do you reckon would be the best outcome of this catastrophe?

I'm not making it personal. I'm calling apples apples. In this thread we are debating on Ukraine and some do so from their personal beliefs and fancies (idealism), and I'll happily argue why that is wrong and what the implications of it are. — Tzeentch

We all discuss from our POV, you included. This is unavoidable. You too have beliefs and ideas. If you don't, I'm sorry for you.

So do you think Putin's war is justified? — Wayfarer

No, of course not. But my moral judgement is irrelevant.

That Ukraine should just give up the fight and allow Russia to annex their country? — Wayfarer

I have no opinion on what the Ukrainians should do.

The United States and Europe could have done much to prevent this conflict and I believe they should have. I also believe the United States and Europe should not cheer on Ukraine on the road to its own destruction for the sake of hurting Russia.

We all discuss from our POV, you included. This is unavoidable. You too have beliefs and ideas. — Olivier5

Yes, but do I really need to explain to you the difference between realism and idealism, which is where we fundamentally differ?