How does one know what an ordered mind is? Is it a way of thinking? Is it a set of beliefs? Is it some internal paradigm form which to interpret our bodies and our external environment. — Benj96

Well, a lot of folk have provided models for this (none of which I endorse) from Scientology to psychoanalysis. I think this line of thinking will always be a product of value systems and often subject to con artistry.

Can an orderly, well trained, self contemplated or meditated mind ever trickle down to a cellular level through several orders of control and influence the repair and regeneration of its body? — Benj96

The New Age movement has been exploring the idea of the mind influencing the body and its healing for many years. I don't think 'orderly' or 'well trained' necessarily come into play. This sounds like the stuff of value systems. Is there any good evidence that the mind heals the body?

My father lived to 98. He never read philosophy or cared about self-development ideas. He ate and drank whatever he wanted. He smoked until he was in his early 40's. He never took formal exercise. He gardened, kept active and read fiction. He was hardly ever sick in his life, was always content and well into his 90's, he looked to be around 70 - vigorous and physically active. I suspect that a long happy, healthy life is probably down to luck and there's fuck all we can do about it.

. Is there any good evidence that the mind heals the body — Tom Storm

Plenty I would say. Oodles. Emotional pain and suffering elicit the very same stress response as physical pain and afflictions. A stressed mind sends the body into a cortisol flush which changes much of the bodies metabolism to one of “sequestering the bare essentials necessary for fight or flight at the expense of repair, regeneration and immunity. It is catabolic rather than anabolic.

Cortisol alone as a systemic hormone has been shown to decrease insulin sensitivity (a predisposing factor for diabetes), raise blood pressure beyond what is appropriate for longterm. It thins the skin, reduces hair growth and generally makes you look less vital over time.
It is highly valuable for short term survival but detrimental long term- Increasing the likelihood of inflammation and cancers.

That’s only one (rather more objective and direct ways) that the mind impacts the health of the body.
Other indirect ways are: the cravings we have - for exercise or sedentary activities, for certain foods healthy or junk, self harm - cutting, anorexia, drug abuse etc.

So it stands to reason if the mind can take the body hostage like this and beat it down with bad choice after bad choice there’s no reason why a healthier more constructive mind can do quite the opposite - bring the body into its most harmonious and maximally healthy and ordered states.

He was hardly ever sick in his life, was always content and well into his 90's, he looked to be around 70 - vigorous and physically active. I suspect that a long happy, healthy life is probably down to luck and there's fuck all we can do about it. — Tom Storm

Of course we must accept there are cases that don’t intuitively make sense. But I would argue that epidemiology and data suggests these are the rarer anomalies rather than the rule. Exceptions don’t prove what is generally known to be good practise on living.

Perhaps his resilience to disease is solely genetic (luck) or maybe there was something about his mind that enabled him to mitigate the bad habits. It’s very complex indeed. There are very healthy people that succumb much earlier to disease than they ought to.

Epigenetics is interesting here as not all identical twins which are genetically the same age the same way nor do they get the same diseases. The environment, exposure to certain things and likely mindframe and behaviours impact what genes become active and which don’t. Not to mention random mutation which applies to all individuals regardless of genetic similarity.

Plenty I would say. Oodles. Emotional pain and suffering elicit the very same stress response as physical pain and afflictions. A stressed mind sends the body into a cortisol flush which changes much of the bodies metabolism to one of “sequestering the bare essentials necessary for fight or flight at the expense of repair, regeneration and immunity. It is catabolic rather than anabolic. — Benj96

It's an interesting area and I know there are strong opinions on this subject, but do you have any studies you can cite? I know experiences of trauma, for instance, can influence behavior and the brain, but what is the evidence about how far can you push this into your original question about mind healing the body?

1. Any oncologist will tell you that the patients that beat cancer are the fighters, those who want to live, while some other patients seem to give up on life and die quickly.

2. It is I believe a proven fact that some ailments are purely psychological, ie psychosomatic.

Any oncologist will tell you that the patients that beat cancer are the fighters, those who want to live, while some other patients seem to give up on life and die quickly. — Olivier5

1) Not so. My sister in-law currently has cancer - terminal - the oncologist has said a couple of times that mental attitude makes no difference to recovery. In fact there are studies that seem to argue for both views. What a positive attitude can do is make a bitter pill easier to swallow.

Having watched a lot of people suffer in palliative care myself, I can say I haven't seen a correlation between positive attitude and endurance or recovery.

It is I believe a proven fact that some ailments are purely psychological, ie psychosomatic. — Olivier5

Maybe true, but even if so, it doesn't follow that mentation can provide recovery for non psychosomatic ailments.

Indeed, I don't think you can cure, say, siphilis with just a positive attitude to life. But i believe that our immune system can be physically affected by our sense of self worth.

Sorry about your sister-in-law. I am surprised about what her doctor said on the absence of correlation between mental attitude and cancer survival. I have heard the opposite said many times by doctors. Would you have a link or remember a reference?

Any oncologist will tell you that the patients that beat cancer are the fighters, — Olivier5

Sure, and all those who died were quitters. Absolute nonsense.

This topic is the main focus of my attention and has been for years
And how the human body works has been a question that I have been working on pretty much ever since I was 14 yrs old do to health problem stemming from birth I was intrigued at how the human body works because being born with a weak heart caused me lots of problems up until one doctor I was referred to recommended I exercise and exercising transformed my life to say the least

And I've been in the health industry for over 15yrs now working with post physical therapy rehab as well as sports and bodybuilding coaching so I've worked both sides of the health spectrum from can't walk to elite physical shape

And what kind of mental condition said persons are in and how that correlates to their physical well-being

I think that the mind can control the body far more then we realize especially here in Western society

One of the most important things a person has to do when getting ready for a bodybuilding competition is stay away from negative thought and feelings because they will make a person look worse almost instantly

I can't tell you how many times Ive had a client send me progress pictures and I ask them if they had a stressful day and they always tell me I'm dead on accurate

I remember when my best friends mom was going through a divorce it was hard but so was that last 10yrs of marriage

And she looked like a normal 45yr old mom nothing to write home about
But after the divorce she had a family member pass away that she didn't even know about so there passing didn't emotionally affected however they left her a substantial chunk of money which took care of her and on her financial problems being on her own so this enabled her to focus on whatever she wanted to and that happened to be herself

And I say all of this because when she realized she had a new start at life and had hope again
It was less then 6 months since I had seen her and she showed up one day and no one recognized her she had changed so much
She lost about 30lb and looked 20yrs younger less wrinkles I mean literally look like you rewound the time clock

She was 100% milf lol no one could believe it it was so much so that people thought her and her daughter were sisters

And all that change was a manifestation of the mental change, she changed within and so the outside followed suit

And in today's world we externalize everything even our religions are externalized now when originally they were meant to be external allegorical explanations for internal things
Take Christianity for example, people are waiting for a physical God to come back physically and destroy the world physically and then rule the world physically

Despite their very scriptures saying things like the temple of god is within

I have many other examples of how set effects reality but I'll leave it at that before I get too excited LOL but yes I like what you're saying and I agree with where you're going

I feel like you're going to get a lot of pessimistic kickback for this topic because there seems to be a lot of bitter narcissistic intellectuals that are into philosophy and the average want to be philosopher only will accept things that have been peer reviewed and are in accordance with the scientific method

which is a limited scope of reality and there's much more to life than what the scientific method can measure so I find it a bit nonsensical for people to only acknowledge things that fit within that particular parameter of testing but to each his own they want to limit their understanding like that that's their business

however I don't remember exactly where the paper is I'll try to find it but there was a study done by Stanford a while back where they took housemates that work for a cleaning company and they asked them if they were fit or active and most of them said no one said that they're pretty sedentary and didn't live a very active life despite the fact that their job was extremely physically demanding

So then they took half of them and explain to them how actually their job is extremely physical and they are very active throughout the day and they explained to them how so and the repetitive things they do throughout the day how it activates certain muscles of the body and how it actually was very good for them

and then they came back and reevaluated them a few months later and found that just changing their mindset in perspective on their job by explaining to them how fit it was to be doing that job made positive improvements across the board in just the participants that they explained it to

and they're physical health literally changed just based off of their perspective on their job on average they lost a little bit of weight their vitals were better just all around general health improved just because their opinion and perspective on their job improved.

And yes it's peer-reviewed and it's from Stanford I'll see if I can find it and link it

I am surprised about what her doctor said on the absence of correlation between mental attitude and cancer survival. I have heard the opposite said many times by doctors. — Olivier5

I'm not surprised. When the sickness is in the cellular level, no amount of positivity or fight would change that.

However, those who are physically fit have a better chance of surviving a heart attack. So, while heart condition could strike anyone, some people are better equipped with surviving an attack than others. I read this somewhere.

I'm not surprised. When the sickness is in the cellular level, no amount of positivity or fight would change that. — L'éléphant

Yep. I noticed that the website of the American Cancer Society has:

Studies have shown that keeping a positive attitude does not change the course of a person’s cancer. Trying to keep a positive attitude does not lead to a longer life and can cause some people to feel guilty when they can’t “stay positive.” This only adds to their burden.

I do think a positive attitude, if not forced, can help make cancer easier to deal with emotionally and it can make it easier for friends and relatives to cope. Whatever that's worth.

Well, I can control my fingers quite well - I'm typing this. However, as your keen sense of observation has led you to ask, why can't I control my immune system (in the same way)? There's gotta be a perfectly good explanation for this rather depressing fact - information overload which seems inevitable may cause a mind crash amd that would be disastrous.

In scientific terms our minds' have power over the physics (motion) but not the chemistry (biological reactions) of our bodies! Intriguing oui?

I noticed that the website of the American Cancer Society has:

Studies have shown that keeping a positive attitude does not change the course of a person’s cancer. Trying to keep a positive attitude does not lead to a longer life and can cause some people to feel guilty when they can’t “stay positive.” This only adds to their burden.

I do think a positive attitude, if not forced, can help make cancer easier to deal with emotionally and it can make it easier for friends and relatives to cope. Whatever that's worth. — Tom Storm

Thanks, also to @L'éléphant. I stand corrected.

I do think a positive attitude, if not forced, can help make cancer easier to deal with emotionally and it can make it easier for friends and relatives to cope. Whatever that's worth. — Tom Storm

Amazingly, humans are equipped with an emotion monitor so that at the stage when the end is there already, the body sort of calms down.

As an interesting fact, doctors themselves are not immune to have this survival distress and equally would ask their doctor to do "whatever it takes" to save them, when they know what a "terminal" illness means and they believe it but would act opposite this fact nonetheless.

:up: